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The Landmarks Commission-Still a Joke

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Re: The Landmarks Commission-Still a Joke

Postby swimmingupstream » Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:13 pm

Bad Gradger wrote:I agree this is just a NIMBY neighbor exploiting the process.

Does it not bother you that the members of the Landmarks Commission made a discretionary decision, going against the very strong advice from their city staff person, to allow themselves to be used for this NIMBY gambit?

Does that not suggest that they are turning the Commission into a joke?
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Re: The Landmarks Commission-Still a Joke

Postby snoqueen » Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:17 pm

I'm thinking this person has money in this project, has another project with an older building on the site he wants to demolish unquestioned, or otherwise has a horse in the race. What other reason would there be to get so worked up about ordinary city processes that ought to be built into the timeline from the beginning?

The pros expect and work through these delays without blinking.

When a mayor gets out in front of the process, he can jeopardize his likelihood of re-election. Do we really have to explain why Soglin knows enough to let things play out? It's not like the way Edgewater was handled (by the developer and the mayor both) brought us any great construction boom.

This town is weathering the construction downturn well compared to lots of other places, so we can't be doing everything wrong. Landmarks is doing what it's supposed to and part of that is following its own judgment and not rolling over when pressured by developers. Historically, that's one reason we have Landmarks.

Go build something in Verona if you hate it so much.
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Re: The Landmarks Commission-Still a Joke

Postby swimmingupstream » Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:34 pm

snoqueen wrote:I'm thinking this person has money in this project, has another project with an older building on the site he wants to demolish unquestioned, or otherwise has a horse in the race. What other reason would there be to get so worked up about ordinary city processes that ought to be built into the timeline from the beginning?

When someone does not have the facts or even a good argument they attack the person. While it should not matter, I do not have a financial stake in this project.

Also, even the Landmarks members acknowledged that what they where doing was not part of the "ordinary city process." It was anything but. Please read Alder Marsha Rummel's memo where even she states this. --Opps! there I go again making an appeal to the facts. Must learn to stop doing that!--
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Re: The Landmarks Commission-Still a Joke

Postby Michael Patrick » Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:44 pm

I think I'll head on down to Verona and start meddling in their land use decisions...
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Re: The Landmarks Commission-Still a Joke

Postby massimo » Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:45 pm

I think most people here actually agree with a lot of what you're saying, but nothing shady or illegal is happening here. This is process, and as sno said developers are well aware of working around process. Trying to circumvent an established process, on the other hand, would be shady.

So, you "do not have a financial stake in this project." Are you related to an employee of the developer? Do you babysit someone's kids?
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Re: The Landmarks Commission-Still a Joke

Postby swimmingupstream » Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:51 pm

Michael Patrick wrote:I think I'll head on down to Verona and start meddling in their land use decisions...

I lived until recently almost thirty years in Madison most of it near Cottage Grove Road. I still have a lot of interest and connections to it. I am sorry that many of you think that the best way to attack my argument is to fall back on where I live.
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Re: The Landmarks Commission-Still a Joke

Postby rabble » Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:55 pm

swimmingupstream wrote:
rabble wrote: You got any links to Marsha's side of the story? She's usually pretty good about putting all her reasons up front.

It can be found here
http://legistar.cityofmadison.com/detai ... ?key=25853
It is process over outcomes. Though a year long process was already followed including Landmarks already previously voting in support of the demolition. The outcome that she is ignoring is job creation and expanding the tax base. BTW, the Landmarks staff person strongly recommended to the commission that they don't unfairly delay this project. They chose to blow her off.

From one of the texts in that link:
From my discussion with Landmarks staff, the Commission was unaware of the provenance and history of the building. The previous developer, Erdman Real Estate Holdings, was uniquely aware of the significance of the property and did not disclose this information to any reviewing bodies.


So Landmarks did indeed vote but did it without all the info. Info that Erdman Real Estate had, but chose not to disclose.

Huh. Well I see no reason at all to hold off for a little while to make sure everything's on the up n up. After all, what's a little bitty coverup between friends? Full speed ahead!
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Re: The Landmarks Commission-Still a Joke

Postby massimo » Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:57 pm

Meh, nobody's really working that hard to attack your argument. We're just curious as to why you are so worked up about all this. At least I am, anyway.
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Re: The Landmarks Commission-Still a Joke

Postby swimmingupstream » Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:59 pm

massimo wrote: I think most people here actually agree with a lot of what you're saying, but nothing shady or illegal is happening here.

I never even implied that anything illegal or shady was happening here. I just criticized the Landmark members' poor decision. I guess that is not allowed around here.
massimo wrote: Trying to circumvent an established process, on the other hand, would be shady.

This was not an established process-Landmarks had already reviewed the case and passed it. Me saying that Landmark members should use their discretion wisely is not shady.
massimo wrote: So, you "do not have a financial stake in this project." Are you related to an employee of the developer? Do you babysit someone's kids?

"yawn"
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Re: The Landmarks Commission-Still a Joke

Postby swimmingupstream » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:09 pm

I oppose Scott Walker and the Republicans as much as or more than anyone else on this board. But the arguments made by some of you here, and the lack there of, is a good representation of why Madison progressives are losing the rest of the state.
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Re: The Landmarks Commission-Still a Joke

Postby lukpac » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:13 pm

swimmingupstream wrote:I am not going to re-post what I have already posted above but the project's builder is on record saying that if Landmarks takes this action it would threaten bringing the project to reality.


And Stu is on record saying Landmarks likely won't take the that action. So you've got nothing.
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Re: The Landmarks Commission-Still a Joke

Postby swimmingupstream » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:39 pm

lukpac wrote:
swimmingupstream wrote:I am not going to re-post what I have already posted above but the project's builder is on record saying that if Landmarks takes this action it would threaten bringing the project to reality.

No, read the article carefully. He said that the action Landmarks took Monday night would further jeopardize the project. The need to delay the project and defend it from this NIMBY attack will add to the cost to this project.
lukpac wrote:And Stu is on record saying Landmarks likely won't take the that action. So you've got nothing.

Hey why should he not fork out a lot more money so Stu and his Landmark friends can have fun with this academic exercise?! He is just a rich developer who is just going to create jobs and more taxes for Madison!
Last edited by swimmingupstream on Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Landmarks Commission-Still a Joke

Postby gargantua » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:41 pm

jjoyce wrote:
gargantua wrote:It did not affect the Landmarks Commission deliberations or timelines in any way whatsoever that I could see.


That you could see....

Why should the executive, approved in a citywide election, hold any sway at all over an appointed commission?

Enough snark. If upstream wants to change the process, he should lobby to do so. But the appointed Landmarks commissioners are charged with abiding by the law, and it seems that's what they're doing. There are ways of changing the law, and maybe even wide support for doing so.


Jason, where did I say that he should have? My point was that he didn't appear to have any sway, Soglin seems to realize that, and that's why he has (wisely) chosen not to opine.
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Re: The Landmarks Commission-Still a Joke

Postby lukpac » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:47 pm

swimmingupstream wrote:No, read the article carefully. He said that the action Landmarks took Monday night would further jeopardize the project. The need to delay the project and defend it from this NIMBY attack will add to the cost to this project.


Why do they need to delay the project? As I indicated above, the Landmarks hearing doesn't push the schedule back at all. The council is already meeting *after* the Landmarks hearing.
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Re: The Landmarks Commission-Still a Joke

Postby gargantua » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:52 pm

lukpac wrote:
swimmingupstream wrote:No, read the article carefully. He said that the action Landmarks took Monday night would further jeopardize the project. The need to delay the project and defend it from this NIMBY attack will add to the cost to this project.


Why do they need to delay the project? As I indicated above, the Landmarks hearing doesn't push the schedule back at all. The council is already meeting *after* the Landmarks hearing.


How can anybody stay mad if you keep using logic and reason like this? Ain't fair!
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