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Today in voter suppression

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Re: Today in voter suppression

Postby lukpac » Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:27 pm

Bludgeon wrote:Vilas drudges up a report (with no link) that says 25% of all black people don't have vote-elligable ID's. Safe to assume then that the African American share of the vote in Alberta Darling's district should be 25% less than it was the last time she stood for election.


Except you're assuming the the makeup of the population who has voted in the past is the same as that of the total population, specifically that if 25% of blacks don't have IDs, 25% of voting blacks don't have IDs. That doesn't seem like a safe assumption to make.
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Re: Today in voter suppression

Postby Bludgeon » Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:31 pm

lukpac wrote:
Bludgeon wrote:Vilas drudges up a report (with no link) that says 25% of all black people don't have vote-elligable ID's. Safe to assume then that the African American share of the vote in Alberta Darling's district should be 25% less than it was the last time she stood for election.


Except you're assuming the the makeup of the population who has voted in the past is the same as that of the total population, specifically that if 25% of blacks don't have IDs, 25% of voting blacks don't have IDs. That doesn't seem like a safe assumption to make.


Neither is the idea that 25% of any legal population does not have an ID.
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Re: Today in voter suppression

Postby Bad Gradger » Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:37 pm

My grandma in the nursing home doesn't have a photo ID, and hasn't needed one for years. And she's white!
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Re: Today in voter suppression

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:39 pm

Bludgeon wrote:Vilas drudges up a report (with no link) that says 25% of all black people don't have vote-elligable ID's.

I linked to the Washington Post article which I quoted. Do you think they just made that up?
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Re: Today in voter suppression

Postby Bland » Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:43 pm

Bludgeon wrote:
Bland wrote:These are issues which can be analyzed and discussed, as opposed to simply refusing to believe that "there are a significant number of people who don't have or can't get ID's" which is factually true and easily proven.


Lets see this proof then and go from there.


Here ya go.

Even if you assume that report overstates the case and the actual percentage is much lower than 25% why is acceptable to disenfranchise ANY voters?

On a much simpler level, why do keep insisting that NOBODY lacks ID? Can you think of a single other thing that EVERYBODY has?
Do you similarly refuse to believe that some small percentage of citizens don't have TVs? Or phones? Or refrigerators? Anything you can name, somebody ain't got. How is that not obvious to you?
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Re: Today in voter suppression

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:44 pm

Bad Gradger wrote:My grandma in the nursing home doesn't have a photo ID, and hasn't needed one for years. And she's white!

That's a big, big problem that will affect thousands, if not tens of thousands. And Walker is preventing voter registration at remote sites, such as nursing homes. Many in those home have long expired driver's licenses (as they no longer can drive) and those expired IDs won't be honored, even if they are already registered and need to vote by absentee ballot.
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Re: Today in voter suppression

Postby Bludgeon » Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:48 pm

Bland wrote:
Bludgeon wrote:
Bland wrote:These are issues which can be analyzed and discussed, as opposed to simply refusing to believe that "there are a significant number of people who don't have or can't get ID's" which is factually true and easily proven.


Lets see this proof then and go from there.


Here ya go.

Even if you assume that report overstates the case and the actual percentage is much lower than 25% why is acceptable to disenfranchise ANY voters?

On a much simpler level, why do keep insisting that NOBODY lacks ID? Can you think of a single other thing that EVERYBODY has?
Do you similarly refuse to believe that some small percentage of citizens don't have TVs? Or phones? Or refrigerators? Anything you can name, somebody ain't got. How is that not obvious to you?


QUESTION ONE wrote: 1) Do you have a current, unexpired government-issued ID with your picture on it, like a driver’s license or a military ID?


Flawed from the get-go.
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Re: Today in voter suppression

Postby Bland » Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:51 pm

Bludgeon wrote:Flawed from the get-go.

Huh? I have no idea what you think you've just proven. Care to explain?
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Re: Today in voter suppression

Postby Bludgeon » Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:54 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
Bad Gradger wrote:My grandma in the nursing home doesn't have a photo ID, and hasn't needed one for years. And she's white!

That's a big, big problem that will affect thousands, if not tens of thousands. And Walker is preventing voter registration at remote sites, such as nursing homes. Many in those home have long expired driver's licenses (as they no longer can drive) and those expired IDs won't be honored, even if they are already registered and need to vote by absentee ballot.


You're right - it is a big problem:

St Louis Dispatch wrote:ST. LOUIS — A voter registration worker with the group ACORN has been indicted on two felony counts of voter registration fraud.

Deidra Humphrey, 44, of East St. Louis, is expected to appear in U.S. District Court in St. Louis this week after a grand jury indicted her on the charges Dec. 31, according to the U.S. attorney's office.

Humphrey is accused of submitting forged and false voter registration cards for the Nov. 8 general election — including forging cards for nursing home residents — U.S. Attorney Catherine Hanaway said Monday.

Humphrey worked for the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN) and the Missouri Progressive Vote Coalition (ProVote), not-for-profit organizations active during campaign seasons in registering low-income and minority voters.
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Re: Today in voter suppression

Postby wack wack » Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:58 pm

Bludgeon wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:
Bad Gradger wrote:My grandma in the nursing home doesn't have a photo ID, and hasn't needed one for years. And she's white!

That's a big, big problem that will affect thousands, if not tens of thousands. And Walker is preventing voter registration at remote sites, such as nursing homes. Many in those home have long expired driver's licenses (as they no longer can drive) and those expired IDs won't be honored, even if they are already registered and need to vote by absentee ballot.


You're right - it is a big problem:

St Louis Dispatch wrote:ST. LOUIS — A voter registration worker with the group ACORN has been indicted on two felony counts of voter registration fraud.

Deidra Humphrey, 44, of East St. Louis, is expected to appear in U.S. District Court in St. Louis this week after a grand jury indicted her on the charges Dec. 31, according to the U.S. attorney's office.

Humphrey is accused of submitting forged and false voter registration cards for the Nov. 8 general election — including forging cards for nursing home residents — U.S. Attorney Catherine Hanaway said Monday.

Humphrey worked for the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN) and the Missouri Progressive Vote Coalition (ProVote), not-for-profit organizations active during campaign seasons in registering low-income and minority voters.


So thousands of voters should be disenfranchised because someone is charged with 2 counts of voter fraud?

There is no way you are really this stupid or morally twisted. You're just playing now.
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Re: Today in voter suppression

Postby Bludgeon » Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:59 pm

Bland wrote:
Bludgeon wrote:Flawed from the get-go.

Huh? I have no idea what you think you've just proven. Care to explain?


Wow you either quote me over the top or not enough for clarity. Question one from the 2006 Brennan survey is: "1) Do you have a current, unexpired government-issued ID with your picture on it, like a driver’s license or a military ID?"

How many of these people have renewed their ID since 2006? The survey just lumps in the people with expired ID's with the people who have NO ID's. In other words they didn't really find out how many people don't have an ID at all, and even though that's ALL the WaPo had to go on, they still printed their shoddy article.
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Re: Today in voter suppression

Postby Bland » Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:09 pm

wack wack wrote:So thousands of voters should be disenfranchised because someone is charged with 2 counts of voter fraud?

Always worth reminding those who cite ACORN as an example that no fraudulent votes were cast, only fraudulent registration cards were discovered. Quite a difference.

Bludgeon wrote:
How many of these people have renewed their ID since 2006?

Holy crap, are you serious? What difference does that make? There's also a shitload more eligible voters since 2006. You really just can't see the forest for teh trees here. As I said above the relevant information isn't that any SPECIFIC number is correct or not (I don't care if it's 25% or .05%), just that there's ample evidence that SOME people do not have IDs (and expired ones can't be used for voting anyway, so I still really don't see your point.) If even ONE person who is legally entitled to vote is denied that right, it's a bad thing. Why do you not get that? And why do you still refuse to believe that NOBODY is without ID when that position is obviously wrong?
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Re: Today in voter suppression

Postby jonnygothispen » Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:16 pm

John Nichols gets it...

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion ... c0c31.html

The presumption is simple enough: A more economically elite electorate is likely to favor the conservative policies favored by groups such as ALEC — and its corporate funders — and so it makes perfect political sense to erect new voting barriers for people with low incomes or limited mobility, students and the elderly...

They (WI citizens) must either pay for their ID or they must work their way through a bureaucratic maze expressly designed to deny them information about the fact that they have a right to a free ID.

This is a classic poll tax structure. While the law on the books may suggest flexibility, the implementation of the law has been designed to erect barriers to voting by those who cannot afford the fee.
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Re: Today in voter suppression

Postby Bludgeon » Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:18 pm

Bland wrote:
wack wack wrote:So thousands of voters should be disenfranchised because someone is charged with 2 counts of voter fraud?

Always worth reminding those who cite ACORN as an example that no fraudulent votes were cast, only fraudulent registration cards were discovered. Quite a difference.

Bludgeon wrote:
How many of these people have renewed their ID since 2006?

Holy crap, are you serious? What difference does that make? There's also a shitload more eligible voters since 2006. You really just can't see the forest for teh trees here. As I said above the relevant information isn't that any SPECIFIC number is correct or not (I don't care if it's 25% or .05%), just that there's ample evidence that SOME people do not have IDs (and expired ones can't be used for voting anyway, so I still really don't see your point.) If even ONE person who is legally entitled to vote is denied that right, it's a bad thing. Why do you not get that?


So... Why is it not a good idea for these folks to get an ID? One fraudulent voter erases your whole vote - why is your vote less important than some imaginary person who supposedly really wants to vote but just can't because there is some imaginary reason they can't get an ID?

Do something about the thing you know is a problem - make sure the people who are voting are real citizens. If people who are eligible are for some cooky reason not willing to go and get one when the DOT is right there, why should that be the rest of the voter's problem? Why should that come at the expense of the whole value of your vote?
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Re: Today in voter suppression

Postby DCB » Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:23 pm

Bland wrote:
On a much simpler level, why do keep insisting that NOBODY lacks ID?

It must be commonplace in Bludgeon's circle to demand ID every time you meet someone.
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