MOBILE USERS: m.isthmus.com
Connect with Isthmus on Twitter · Facebook · Flickr · Newsletters 
Thursday, July 24, 2014 |  Madison, WI: 63.0° F  Partly Cloudy
Collapse Photo Bar

Out of Iraq

If it's news, but not politics, then it goes here.

Re: Out of Iraq

Postby Marvell » Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:38 pm

PS -

'The People' are not deeply divided. A small but disproportionate minority, backed by a massively funded plutocracy, are preventing the government from reflecting the will of the people.

Hiding behind some willfully stupid reference to Mussolini is the height of intellectual vapidity and cowardice.

Feel free to crawl back into your carefully manufactured parody of reality.
Marvell
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 6976
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 11:28 pm
Location: At one with time and space

Re: Out of Iraq

Postby Huckleby » Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:46 pm

I don't do flame wars
Huckleby
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 6174
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:12 pm
Location: parents' basement

Re: Out of Iraq

Postby fennel » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:05 pm

Marvell wrote:'The People' are not deeply divided. A small but disproportionate minority, backed by a massively funded plutocracy, are preventing the government from reflecting the will of the people.
That's precisely correct, except for the fact that so many are misinformed or simply lack relevant information. (They hear that "The Senate blocked the jobs bill," for example, but not that "Republicans in the Senate blocked the jobs bill.")

So the people are not divided in terms of what they need, but they are divided in terms of what they know about who is acting in their interests. And that confusion always serves counter to their interests.
fennel
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3119
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:24 pm
Location: Inside the Green Zone, Madison

Re: Out of Iraq

Postby Huckleby » Wed Oct 26, 2011 8:27 pm

In 2006, the public swept Republicans out of the House. Was this because people were misinformed? Was it because some moneyed, ruling cliche decided it was time for a change? I'd suggest it was because Bush was seen as a failure by the public. THis is democracy.

In 2008, Obama carried the Democrats to controlling power. In his first year, he enacted a record amount of legislation, including a health care bill that ultimately will result in the largest redistribution of wealth this country has ever experienced, mostly through medicaid expansion. This is democracy in ACTION, real change.

2010 - a massive right wing backlash, resulting in a paralysed government. We The People sent a gang to office with mandate to Stop the Spending.

Democracy is working as intended, it just kinda sucks sometimes. If you want to know the mood of the country at any moment, take a look at composition of the House of Representatives.

Glen Beck will insist that the majority of the country really thinks like him, its just that people are mislead by the liberal mainstream media. Its funny how the far left and far right sound about the same with their conspiratorial theories. "The people" supposedly are with them, its just some nefarious force preventing the manifestation of The Truth.
Huckleby
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 6174
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:12 pm
Location: parents' basement

Re: Out of Iraq

Postby fennel » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:34 pm

Huckleby wrote:2010 - a massive right wing backlash, resulting in a paralysed government. We The People sent a gang to office with mandate to Stop the Spending.
The "mandate" could just as well have been Spank the Iridescent Macaque if it were simplistic enough and people could identify someone or something that corresponded with the theme. The details had no particular bearing, since people were expressing frustration by voting against, which had naturally been described to them as a path to salvation. No doubt this was also true in the 2008 election, but to a lesser degree. In that case, good information had been seeping upward for years.

A short news cycle serves the news sellers when the people are under duress.
fennel
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3119
Joined: Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:24 pm
Location: Inside the Green Zone, Madison

Re: Out of Iraq

Postby gargantua » Wed Oct 26, 2011 9:58 pm

Huckleby wrote:In 2006, the public swept Republicans out of the House. Was this because people were misinformed? Was it because some moneyed, ruling cliche decided it was time for a change? I'd suggest it was because Bush was seen as a failure by the public. THis is democracy.

In 2008, Obama carried the Democrats to controlling power. In his first year, he enacted a record amount of legislation, including a health care bill that ultimately will result in the largest redistribution of wealth this country has ever experienced, mostly through medicaid expansion. This is democracy in ACTION, real change.

2010 - a massive right wing backlash, resulting in a paralysed government. We The People sent a gang to office with mandate to Stop the Spending.

Democracy is working as intended, it just kinda sucks sometimes. If you want to know the mood of the country at any moment, take a look at composition of the House of Representatives.

Glen Beck will insist that the majority of the country really thinks like him, its just that people are mislead by the liberal mainstream media. Its funny how the far left and far right sound about the same with their conspiratorial theories. "The people" supposedly are with them, its just some nefarious force preventing the manifestation of The Truth.


I look at the same set of facts and come to a somewhat different conclusion. The people are throwing different sets of bums out each election, and it doesn't make any difference! To me, that's not democracy working, it's a political class that is indifferent to the needs and desires of the voters. People have begun to figure it out, which accounts for much of the frustration level in the country.
gargantua
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3961
Joined: Sat Apr 13, 2002 1:30 pm
Location: Madison

Re: Out of Iraq

Postby Uncle Fester » Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:22 am

Obama's policies have been an endorsement and expansion of what started under Dubya, including keeping Gitmo open, increasing drone strikes, and mowing down enemies in a way that would make John Rambo proud. As Dennis Miller says, Obama is a "killing machine."

Menwhile, the liberal, oh-so-caring Madison peaceniks who frequent this board think it's all really swell.

Hilarious! :)
Uncle Fester
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 975
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2002 3:26 pm

Re: Out of Iraq

Postby acereraser » Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:11 am

Uncle Fester wrote:Obama's policies have been an endorsement and expansion of what started under Dubya, including keeping Gitmo open, increasing drone strikes, and mowing down enemies in a way that would make John Rambo proud. As Dennis Miller says, Obama is a "killing machine."

Menwhile, the liberal, oh-so-caring Madison peaceniks who frequent this board think it's all really swell.

Hilarious! :)


Policy preferences aside, for the moment, I would say he is a lot better at it than Dubya. Do you agree?
acereraser
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 1427
Joined: Mon May 02, 2005 8:42 pm

Re: Out of Iraq

Postby Huckleby » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:12 am

gargantua wrote: The people are throwing different sets of bums out each election, and it doesn't make any difference! To me, that's not democracy working, it's a political class that is indifferent to the needs and desires of the voters .
But it does make a difference. Obama has made a big differene. If the Republicans succeed in capturing both houses of congress and the presidency, you'll see how much difference really can be made. Look how much difference the conservative supreme court has made, and that comes from the result of presidential elections.

There is no unitary "political class." There are different blocs of politicians with vastly different ideas on how government should work. JUST LIKE PEOPLE HAVE VASTLY DIFFERENT IDEAS. The "political class" has to appeal to voters or they get thrown out of office.

Do you ever listen to conservative talk radio? Those people want government to do n-o-t-h-i-n-g. You claim to know the needs and desires of voters. Do you realize that America is an individualistic culture, and tons of people out there think we should all just fend for ourselves? (Well, except where the impact of this philosophy affect them personally.) Listen to Herman Cain: blame yourself if you don't have a job - that attitude resonates.

Our government is dysfunctional right now, no doubt about. This too shall pass. Democracy produces unpleasant results sometimes. The main struggle is for the hearts and minds of the people, that drives everything.
Huckleby
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 6174
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:12 pm
Location: parents' basement

Re: Out of Iraq

Postby Huckleby » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:18 am

Uncle Fester wrote:Obama's policies have been an endorsement and expansion of what started under Dubya, including keeping Gitmo open, increasing drone strikes, and mowing down enemies in a way that would make John Rambo proud. As Dennis Miller says, Obama is a "killing machine."


You might add to this Obama's policy of deporting illegals at about 5x the rate that Bush did.

OBama's anti-terrorism policy, including drones, is a plus. The Afghanistan surge a failure. I think Obama has handled Iraq, Iran, the Arab Spring in an excellent manner. What good option did Obama have on Gitmo!?

Fester, it sounds like you are taunting liberals for recreational purposes, not sure I get your point. Don't know how old you are, but if you are honest, you have to admit that every presidental candidate in your lifetime has dissappointed their base when they are forced to make choices.
Huckleby
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 6174
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:12 pm
Location: parents' basement

Re: Out of Iraq

Postby Marvell » Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:55 am

Huckleby wrote:I don't do flame wars


That's a mercy, since you would undoutably be as shitty at a flame war as you are at making a rational argument.

Between the Bush Attorney General's office acting as a de facto vote suppression factory, the ALEC-orchestrated war on public service unions (a de facto attempt to cripple Democratic fund-raising efforts), the ALEC-orchestrated 'Voter Fraud' hysteria, and GOP-led redistricting efforts at the state level, it's become abundantly clear that the Republicans have ceased to be a political party and have dove head-first into being a crime syndicate.

That you don't seem to have a problem with this speaks volumes about your intelligence and powers of discernment. I guess 'middlebrow' = 'gutless mediocrity.'

Keep on with the gullible chumphood, Huckleby. It suits you.
Marvell
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 6976
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 11:28 pm
Location: At one with time and space

Re: Out of Iraq

Postby Huckleby » Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:09 pm

Marvell, that is quite a series of strawman arguments you've assembled.

I expect you are very capable of having an intelligent discussion. Why you resort to angry insults is a mystery, it makes you look like a person lacking judgement.
Huckleby
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 6174
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:12 pm
Location: parents' basement

Re: Out of Iraq

Postby rabble » Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:11 pm

Huckleby wrote:Marvell, that is quite a series of strawman arguments you've assembled.

I expect you are very capable of having an intelligent discussion. Why you resort to angry insults is a mystery, it makes you look like a person lacking judgement.

You are saying that all these things Marvel strings together:
Bush Attorney General's office acting as a de facto vote suppression factory, the ALEC-orchestrated war on public service unions (a de facto attempt to cripple Democratic fund-raising efforts), the ALEC-orchestrated 'Voter Fraud' hysteria, and GOP-led redistricting efforts at the state level

are straw men?

Could you define the term "straw man" for me? I don't think I'm using the correct one.
rabble
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 5995
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:50 pm

Re: Out of Iraq

Postby Huckleby » Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:28 pm

A strawman argument is a foolish position that a slippery debater ascribes to his opponent. And then the gallant knight knocks down the strawman.

I don't ignore the problems that Marvelous Marvin lists, in fact in past threads I've railed against them. There are some seriously undemocratic, f-up things going-on of late.

Its a question of perspective. The main effect of redistricting has been to polarize congress. It has helped particular parties, of late the Republicans, on the margins. Same deal with the voter ID laws, and the disenfranchisement of felons. These are infuriating situations that skew things a bit, but its not like democracy has been subverted in the main.

I don't think the chicanery of today compares to the Jim Crow laws of the 60's. ( I wonder how powerful those laws were anyway, since the South has become more conservative than ever)
Last edited by Huckleby on Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Huckleby
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 6174
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:12 pm
Location: parents' basement

Re: Out of Iraq

Postby rabble » Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:31 pm

Huckleby wrote:A strawman argument is a foolish position that a slippery debater ascribes to his opponent. And then the gallant knight knocks down the strawman.

I don't ignore the problems that Marvelous Marvin lists, in fact in past threads I've railed against them. There are some seriously undemocratic, f-up things going-on of late.

Its a question of perspective. The main effect of redistricting has been to polarize congress. It has helped particular parties, of late the Republicans, on the margins. Same deal with the voter ID laws, and the disenfranchisement of felons. These are infuriating situations that skew things a bit, but its not like democracy has been subverted in the main.

Usually you have some arguments that could be described as cogent but in this case I think you've used the straw man concept as a straw man.
rabble
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 5995
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:50 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Headlines

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

moviesmusiceats
Select a Movie
Select a Theater


commentsViewedForum
  ISTHMUS FLICKR

Promotions Contact us Privacy Policy Jobs Newsletters RSS
Collapse Photo Bar