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Klimate Kooks Korrekt

If it's news, but not politics, then it goes here.

Re: Klimate Kooks Korrekt

Postby john bee » Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:53 am

Mean Scenester wrote:Crockett, did I mention you're the dumbest motherfucker currently drawing breath around here?



Nice. When anyone has any doubt or contradiction -- attack them personally. Way to get your view across in a convincing logical fashion. :roll:

By the way, that's exactly what the consensus of leading scientists did to Louis Pasteur when he contradicted the consensus view that micro-organisms had NOTHING to do with disease. I'm pretty glad he continued to fight against the vile personal attacks.
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Re: Klimate Kooks Korrekt

Postby rabble » Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:08 pm

When one can't find a way to contradict any actual DATA, the next best things to do are go back and find an insult tossed from the correct side at someone else. Preferably, oh, say, six months to a year ago so we can give it a good kick.

Then point out once there was once a group of scientists who didn't like something another scientist said.

This will prove undoubtedly that there is no global warming and if there is, it's not our fault and we don't need to do anything.

Well, we shouldn't do anything that doesn't pump obscene profits into the right pockets.
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Re: Klimate Kooks Korrekt

Postby doppel » Sat Nov 05, 2011 4:12 pm

Sorry, don't know how to post links on this forum and can't find instructions on how to. Some advice from someone much brighter than all of us on this subject. Reid A. Bryson 1920-2008

See how much this makes your brain hurt:

From the Wisconsin Energy Cooperative Times-2006

"The Faithful Heretic
A Wisconsin Icon Pursues Tough Questions

Some people are lucky enough to enjoy their work, some are lucky enough to love it, and then there’s Reid Bryson. At age 86, he’s still hard at it every day, delving into the science some say he invented.

Reid A. Bryson holds the 30th PhD in Meteorology granted in the history of American education. Emeritus Professor and founding chairman of the University of Wisconsin Department of Meteorology—now the Department of Oceanic and Atmospheric Sciences—in the 1970s he became the first director of what’s now the UW’s Gaylord Nelson Institute of Environmental Studies. He’s a member of the United Nations Global 500 Roll of Honor—created, the U.N. says, to recognize “outstanding achievements in the protection and improvement of the environment.” He has authored five books and more than 230 other publications and was identified by the British Institute of Geographers as the most frequently cited climatologist in the world.

Long ago in the Army Air Corps, Bryson and a colleague prepared the aviation weather forecast that predicted discovery of the jet stream by a group of B-29s flying to and from Tokyo. Their warning to expect westerly winds at 168 knots earned Bryson and his friend a chewing out from a general—and the general’s apology the next day when he learned they were right. Bryson flew into a couple of typhoons in 1944, three years before the Weather Service officially did such things, and he prepared the forecast for the homeward flight of the Enola Gay. Back in Wisconsin, he built a program at the UW that’s trained some of the nation’s leading climatologists.

How Little We Know

Bryson is a believer in climate change, in that he’s as quick as anyone to acknowledge that Earth’s climate has done nothing but change throughout the planet’s existence. In fact, he took that knowledge a big step further, earlier than probably anyone else. Almost 40 years ago, Bryson stood before the American Association for the Advancement of Science and presented a paper saying human activity could alter climate.

“I was laughed off the platform for saying that,” he told Wisconsin Energy Cooperative News.

In the 1960s, Bryson’s idea was widely considered a radical proposition. But nowadays things have turned almost in the opposite direction: Hardly a day passes without some authority figure claiming that whatever the climate happens to be doing, human activity must be part of the explanation. And once again, Bryson is challenging the conventional wisdom.

“Climate’s always been changing and it’s been changing rapidly at various times, and so something was making it change in the past,” he told us in an interview this past winter. “Before there were enough people to make any difference at all, two million years ago, nobody was changing the climate, yet the climate was changing, okay?”

“All this argument is the temperature going up or not, it’s absurd,” Bryson continues. “Of course it’s going up. It has gone up since the early 1800s, before the Industrial Revolution, because we’re coming out of the Little Ice Age, not because we’re putting more carbon dioxide into the air.”

Little Ice Age? That’s what chased the Vikings out of Greenland after they’d farmed there for a few hundred years during the Mediaeval Warm Period, an earlier run of a few centuries when the planet was very likely warmer than it is now, without any help from industrial activity in making it that way. What’s called “proxy evidence”—assorted clues extrapolated from marine sediment cores, pollen specimens, and tree-ring data—helps reconstruct the climate in those times before instrumental temperature records existed.

We ask about that evidence, but Bryson says it’s second-tier stuff. “Don’t talk about proxies,” he says. “We have written evidence, eyeball evidence. When Eric the Red went to Greenland, how did he get there? It’s all written down.”

Bryson describes the navigational instructions provided for Norse mariners making their way from Europe to their settlements in Greenland. The place was named for a reason: The Norse farmed there from the 10th century to the 13th, a somewhat longer period than the United States has existed. But around 1200 the mariners’ instructions changed in a big way. Ice became a major navigational reference. Today, old Viking farmsteads are covered by glaciers.

Bryson mentions the retreat of Alpine glaciers, common grist for current headlines. “What do they find when the ice sheets retreat, in the Alps?”

We recall the two-year-old report saying a mature forest and agricultural water-management structures had been discovered emerging from the ice, seeing sunlight for the first time in thousands of years. Bryson interrupts excitedly.

“A silver mine! The guys had stacked up their tools because they were going to be back the next spring to mine more silver, only the snow never went,” he says. “There used to be less ice than now. It’s just getting back to normal.”

What Leads, What Follows?

What is normal? Maybe continuous change is the only thing that qualifies. There’s been warming over the past 150 years and even though it’s less than one degree, Celsius, something had to cause it. The usual suspect is the “greenhouse effect,” various atmospheric gases trapping solar energy, preventing it being reflected back into space.

We ask Bryson what could be making the key difference:

Q: Could you rank the things that have the most significant impact and where would you put carbon dioxide on the list?

A: Well let me give you one fact first. In the first 30 feet of the atmosphere, on the average, outward radiation from the Earth, which is what CO2 is supposed to affect, how much [of the reflected energy] is absorbed by water vapor? In the first 30 feet, 80 percent, okay?

Q: Eighty percent of the heat radiated back from the surface is absorbed in the first 30 feet by water vapor…

A: And how much is absorbed by carbon dioxide? Eight hundredths of one percent. One one-thousandth as important as water vapor. You can go outside and spit and have the same effect as doubling carbon dioxide.

This begs questions about the widely publicized mathematical models researchers run through supercomputers to generate climate scenarios 50 or 100 years in the future. Bryson says the data fed into the computers overemphasizes carbon dioxide and accounts poorly for the effects of clouds—water vapor. Asked to evaluate the models’ long-range predictive ability, he answers with another question: “Do you believe a five-day forecast?”

Bryson says he looks in the opposite direction, at past climate conditions, for clues to future climate behavior. Trying that approach in the weeks following our interview, Wisconsin Energy Cooperative News soon found six separate papers about Antarctic ice core studies, published in peer-reviewed scientific journals between 1999 and 2006. The ice core data allowed researchers to examine multiple climate changes reaching back over the past 650,000 years. All six studies found atmospheric carbon dioxide concentrations tracking closely with temperatures, but with CO2 lagging behind changes in temperature, rather than leading them. The time lag between temperatures moving up—or down—and carbon dioxide following ranged from a few hundred to a few thousand years.

Renaissance Man, Marathon Man

When others were laughing at the concept, Reid Bryson was laying the ground floor for scientific investigation of human impacts on climate. We asked UW Professor Ed Hopkins, the assistant state climatologist, about the significance of Bryson’s work in advancing the science he’s now practiced for six decades.

“His contributions are manifold,” Hopkins said. “He wrote Climates of Hunger back in the 1970s looking at how climate changes over the last several thousand years have affected human activity and human cultures.”

This, he suggests, is traceable to Bryson’s high-school interest in archaeology, followed by college degrees in geology, then meteorology, and studies in oceanography, limnology, and other disciplines. “He’s looked at the interconnections of all these things and their impact on human societies,” Hopkins says. “He’s one of those people I would say is a Renaissance person.”

The Renaissance, of course, produced its share of heretics, and 21 years after he supposedly retired, one could ponder whether Bryson’s work today is a tale of continuing heresy, or of conventional wisdom being outpaced by an octogenarian.

Without addressing—or being asked—that question, UW Green Bay Emeritus Professor Joseph Moran agrees that Bryson qualifies as “the father of the science of modern climatology.”

“In his lifetime, in his career, he has shaped the future as well as the present state of climatology,” Moran says, adding, “We’re going to see his legacy with us for many generations to come.”

Holding bachelor’s and master’s degrees from Boston College, Moran became a doctoral candidate under Bryson in the late 1960s and early ’70s. “I came to Wisconsin because he was there,” Moran told us.

With Hopkins, Moran co-authored Wisconsin’s Weather and Climate, a book aimed at teachers, students, outdoor enthusiasts, and workers with a need to understand what the weather does and why. Bryson wrote a preface for the book but Hopkins told us the editors “couldn’t fathom” certain comments, thinking he was being too flippant with the remark that “Wisconsin is not for wimps when it comes to weather.”

Clearly what those editors couldn’t fathom was that Bryson simply enjoys mulling over the reasons weather and climate behave as they do and what might make them—and consequently us—behave differently. This was immediately obvious when we asked him why, at his age, he keeps showing up for work at a job he’s no longer paid to do.

“It’s fun!” he said. Ed Hopkins and Joe Moran would undoubtedly agree.

“I think that’s one of the reasons for his longevity,” Moran says. “He’s so interested and inquisitive. I regard him as a pot-stirrer. Sometimes people don’t react well when you challenge their long-held ideas, but that’s how real science takes place.”—Dave Hoopman
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Re: Klimate Kooks Korrekt

Postby rabble » Sat Nov 05, 2011 5:38 pm

The easiest way is to copy the URL from your location bar and paste it into the textbox.

Yeah, good ol Reid Bryson. If you can find just one scientist who disagrees with any theory, it means you can't trust it. And of course since he died in 2008, nothing's been discovered or published, right?

Did you know he predicted global cooling back in the 70's?

He became a contrarian in his golden years, god rest his soul, but all of his statements on the "hooey" of global warming have been rebutted, in papers like this one, and this one. And as the evidence keeps mounting the resistance from the pockets within the scientific community grows quieter but always, always we will have the flat earthers. There will always be the ones who just won't believe. So you kids have fun.
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Re: Klimate Kooks Korrekt

Postby Henry Vilas » Sat Nov 19, 2011 11:40 am

Science panel: Get ready for extreme weather

The panel said the world needs to get ready for more dangerous and "unprecedented extreme weather" caused by global warming. These experts fear that without preparedness, crazy weather extremes may overwhelm some locations, making some places unlivable.

The Nobel Prize-winning Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change issued a special report on global warming and extreme weather Friday after meeting in Kampala, Uganda. This is the first time the group of scientists has focused on the dangers of extreme weather events such as heat waves, floods, droughts and storms. Those are more dangerous than gradual increases in the world's average temperature.


The Neds of the world are still in denial, but they don't have science on their side. All they have is their political biases.
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Re: Klimate Kooks Korrekt

Postby Ned Flanders » Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:36 am

Wow. Extreme weather. That' s something new :roll:
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Re: Klimate Kooks Korrekt

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:48 am

Wow. A weak, trollish post from Ned. That's something old.
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Re: Klimate Kooks Korrekt

Postby rabble » Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:21 am

Ned Flanders wrote:Wow. Extreme weather becoming the norm. That' s something new.


There ya go, Nedly. Fixt fr free.
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Re: Klimate Kooks Korrekt

Postby Ned Flanders » Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:30 am

I suggest some of you weatherers review the history of climate and weather. There's something "extreme" happening every day of every year.

But feel free to worship any deity you choose.
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Re: Klimate Kooks Korrekt

Postby rabble » Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:44 am

Ned Flanders wrote:I suggest some of you weatherers review the history of climate and weather. There's something "extreme" happening every day of every year.

But feel free to worship any deity you choose.

Thanks, but we'll go with science.

The point of the article is that every area is going to get more extreme weather, which is a little different from having an extreme weather event somewhere on the globe. So we're going to see several examples of something "extreme" happening every day, in many places. What we'll see is lots of extreme somethings where we used to see only one or two.

But that's deities for ya. They do tend to blind a little.
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Re: Klimate Kooks Korrekt

Postby Ned Flanders » Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:10 pm

They've been saying the same thing since the the 70s, except then the alarmism was based on "global cooling". It's not happening.

Look, if you want turn in your air conditioner, car, computer, turn off your lights and not travel by car or air, knock yourself out.

Just don't drag the rest of us into your madness.
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Re: Klimate Kooks Korrekt

Postby rabble » Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:20 pm

Ned Flanders wrote:They've been saying the same thing since the the 70s, except then the alarmism was based on "global cooling". It's not happening.

Look, if you want turn in your air conditioner, car, computer, turn off your lights and not travel by car or air, knock yourself out.

Just don't drag the rest of us into your madness.

And again, the neds miss the point.

There ain't nothing we can do to stop it. We're here. It's here. The time for prevention is long gone. We're all being dragged into the madness.

Except now you guys are using your blinders as excuses to avoid preparing for the results instead of excuses to avoid prevention.
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Re: Klimate Kooks Korrekt

Postby kurt_w » Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:25 pm

Ned Flanders wrote:They've been saying the same thing since the the 70s, except then the alarmism was based on "global cooling".


Not true.

Peterson, T C., W. M. Connolley, and J. Fleck. 2008. The Myth of the 1970s Global Cooling Scientific Consensus. Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society, vol. 89, pp. 1325–1337.

Also of interest: Happy 35th birthday, global warming!
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Re: Klimate Kooks Korrekt

Postby Galoot » Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:47 pm

kurt, man, that paper was written by scientists. You expect Neddily to take their word over Rush L's and Bill O's? Those scientists probably got paid the entire time they were doing that study! It has to be false.
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Re: Klimate Kooks Korrekt

Postby Ned Flanders » Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:18 pm

Oh kids, kids. Revrund Kurt has you going again. Note the hysteria in the Newsweek article regarding predicted "drastic" changes in the weather.

Sound familiar?

Another Ice Age?
Monday, June 24, 1974

In Africa, drought continues for the sixth consecutive year, adding terribly to the toll of famine victims. During 1972 record rains in parts of the U.S., Pakistan and Japan caused some of the worst flooding in centuries. In Canada's wheat belt, a particularly chilly and rainy spring has delayed planting and may well bring a disappointingly small harvest. Rainy Britain, on the other hand, has suffered from uncharacteristic dry spells the past few springs. A series of unusually cold winters has gripped the American Far West, while New England and northern Europe have...

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... z1eNPDA7W3

The Cooling World
Newsweek, April 28, 1975

There are ominous signs that the Earth’s weather patterns have begun to change dramatically and that these changes may portend a drastic decline in food production – with serious political implications for just about every nation on Earth. The drop in food output could begin quite soon, perhaps only 10 years from now. The regions destined to feel its impact are the great wheat-producing lands of Canada and the U.S.S.R. in the North, along with a number of marginally self-sufficient tropical areas – parts of India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Indochina and Indonesia – where the growing season is dependent upon the rains brought by the monsoon.

The evidence in support of these predictions has now begun to accumulate so massively that meteorologists are hard-pressed to keep up with it. In England, farmers have seen their growing season decline by about two weeks since 1950, with a resultant overall loss in grain production estimated at up to 100,000 tons annually. During the same time, the average temperature around the equator has risen by a fraction of a degree – a fraction that in some areas can mean drought and desolation. Last April, in the most devastating outbreak of tornadoes ever recorded, 148 twisters killed more than 300 people and caused half a billion dollars’ worth of damage in 13 U.S. states

http://www.denisdutton.com/cooling_world.htm
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