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The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:17 am

Ned Flanders wrote:
Huckleby wrote:The Catholic bishops strongly opposed healthcare reform.

Wrong.

Correct.
The bishops believe access to basic, quality health care is a universal human right not a privilege.


But what about you, Ned? Do you support reform, or do you think it hasn't gone far enough?
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Ned Flanders » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:25 am

Additional information from the USCCB:

http://old.usccb.org/sdwp/national/comphealth.shtml
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:36 am

Yes, it still serves too few and costs too much. A universal system that covers everyone who be less costly than our present system. On that I do agree.

So Ned, do you agree with the Catholic bishops that we need to cover everyone (as the rest of the industrial world does) and that it is a basic right, not just a privilege? A direct answer, please.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby DCB » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:48 am

jasonx5 wrote:Its good marketing for the church. The more catholics that produce more catholics, means more catholics handing over dough to the church.

I'm not sure what you're referring to as 'good marketing'.

But if you think that the Church's 'no contraception' line has any effect on behavior on its members, you haven't been following the issue. Pretty much all Catholics use contraception.

The issue is just about the Bishops trying to convince a secular country to yield to is superstitious ways.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:15 pm

Ned Flanders wrote:
Huckleby wrote:The Catholic bishops strongly opposed healthcare reform.

Wrong.

Really!?
When an organization of nuns dared to suppport Obamacare late in the game, they were practically ex-communicated by the furious bishops. The bishops condemned Obamacare through the end because they claimed it indirectly funded abortions by including money for community clinics.

The bishops may have been non-commital early in the process.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Ned Flanders » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:37 pm

Outside of abortion and gay marriage, many of you would be surprised at how left-leaning and pc the U.S. church is down to the parish level. In their hunger for "social justice" and "peace", the U.S. Bishops have aligned themselves with Democrats, not understanding or choosing to ignore that Dems cynically banty about these terms to get votes and money (and nothing more).
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Feb 13, 2012 12:58 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:So Ned, do you agree with the Catholic bishops that we need to cover everyone (as the rest of the industrial world does) and that it is a basic right, not just a privilege? A direct answer, please.

Your indirect answer in your last post seems to indicate you disagree with your own bishops. I believe the pope has a similar position on the universal right to health care as do American Catholic bishops.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Detritus » Mon Feb 13, 2012 1:11 pm

In the interest of time, let me short-circuit the waffling, half answers, and lame "jokes" Ned will inevitably provide and summarize his general position.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:10 pm

The catholic church does an enormous amount of good in this world, in some ways they are the Christians who walk Jesus' talk. But unfortunately they also have this insane blind spot on sexual & gender issues.

I think it demonstrates that men and women provide a certain balance. It is healthy to have diverse perspectives.

The Church will be a much healthier place when priests can marry. Of course gay marriage will also have to be accepted first, so half their priests can find suitable partners. (A cousin of mine was in the seminary in the 1960's, and he says it seemed mostly gay. He is gay.)
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby WestSideYuppie » Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:30 pm

Huckleby wrote:
WestSideYuppie wrote:Catholics can't argue that they are paying for birth control, because birth control saves them money.

Here's an idea: Let Catholics preserve their religious dignity by having them return the money that they save, back to the government.

"catholics" is a meaningless generalization. But maybe you are refering to the church power brokers.

I think it is important not to turn this controversy into us versus catholics.


Good point.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby WestSideYuppie » Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:53 pm

Ned Flanders wrote:Outside of abortion and gay marriage, many of you would be surprised at how left-leaning and pc the U.S. church is down to the parish level. In their hunger for "social justice" and "peace", the U.S. Bishops have aligned themselves with Democrats, not understanding or choosing to ignore that Dems cynically banty about these terms to get votes and money (and nothing more).


I think that the Church Fathers have given up on Catholics at the parish level. As for aligning with Democrats, I doubt that this is the case. The Fathers have always wrestled with the moral dilemma of choosing candidates who aren't fully aligned with Church doctrines. Over the past 40 years (coincident with the rise of the religious right), the Fathers have moved towards a doctrine of prioritizing some issues over others, resulting in what amounts to single issue politics revolving around abortion. This, along with opposition to gay marriage and secular government, amounts to fairly strong support for the Republican Party.

As for peace and social justice, we get periodic token statements that seem meant to be ignored. The Pope's main concern seems to be the sheer misery of Europeans who have forgotten about God. This is almost as relevant to social justice as Pope Pius XII's personal crusade for the sexual purity of children.

My own impression is that the Fathers are using the surprising traction that they have gained on the health care law, to forge a stronger bond with sectarian Republicans.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:14 pm

WestSideYuppie wrote:
Huckleby wrote:"catholics" is a meaningless generalization. But maybe you are refering to the church power brokers.

I think it is important not to turn this controversy into us versus catholics.


Good point.

Is it?
And how is Catholic a meaningless generalization?

If the position of the Church is so far out of whack from what those at the parish level believe, why in God's name do they continue to be members? Pick a new church. Start your own. Maybe consider that there's something seriously fucked up with your worldview if you believe in and pray to a God who chooses as his representatives on Earth people who say and do things you know in your gut are wrong.

Yeeeesh. The enormous amount of people who seem to participate in and financially support religious organizations whose rules and doctrines they seemingly hold in contempt is mind-boggling to this atheist. If I told you that I just joined a group and I'm now paying them dues but don't agree with many of their central doctrines, you'd rightly accuse me of being nuts. And if I then insisted that even though I'm not going to follow the rules of the group, I will continue to financially support them in their efforts to outlaw the very practices I disagree with, you'd rightly call me stone cold fucking crazy. How does this scenario suddenly become sane -- and off-limits to criticism -- just by adding an ancient desert god into the equation?
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby snoqueen » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:30 pm

I decided I needed to know more about what Madison area Catholic charities do, and I found the following page:

http://catholiccharitiesofmadison.org/P ... vices.aspx

It's an amazingly wide spectrum of services for people of all ages, for families, for those with disabilities, for the elderly, for children, for alcohol and drug problems, and for those with limited financial resources. I didn't know about a lot of it. While I have no idea what portion of the church's resources go to these services as opposed to their political stuff and lobbying, I've got to say my impression they were doing very little or giving short shrift to social issues was not correct.

Of course they do not offer a full spectrum of services surrounding birth control, women's issues, and sexuality, but that doesn't cancel the things they are doing.

Quite possibly there's a disconnect between the bishops and the interests of the laity and of women in the church, which would be no surprise given the way our whole society is right now.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby WestSideYuppie » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:44 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:
WestSideYuppie wrote:
Huckleby wrote:"catholics" is a meaningless generalization. But maybe you are refering to the church power brokers.

I think it is important not to turn this controversy into us versus catholics.


Good point.

Is it?
And how is Catholic a meaningless generalization?


Well, nearly meaningless. :)

"Catholic" could mean anybody who has been Baptized, or it could mean anybody who accepts the totality of Catholic doctrine, or anything in between. I have a rule of thumb, which is to avoid trying to guess somebody's beliefs from the doctrines of their sect, and that is the sense in which I took Huckleby's comment to heart.

If the position of the Church is so far out of whack from what those at the parish level believe, why in God's name do they continue to be members? Pick a new church. Start your own. Maybe consider that there's something seriously fucked up with your worldview if you believe in and pray to a God who chooses as his representatives on Earth people who say and do things you know in your gut are wrong.

Yeeeesh. The enormous amount of people who seem to participate in and financially support religious organizations whose rules and doctrines they seemingly hold in contempt is mind-boggling to this atheist. If I told you that I just joined a group and I'm now paying them dues but don't agree with many of their central doctrines, you'd rightly accuse me of being nuts. And if I then insisted that even though I'm not going to follow the rules of the group, I will continue to financially support them in their efforts to outlaw the very practices I disagree with, you'd rightly call me stone cold fucking crazy. How does this scenario suddenly become sane -- and off-limits to criticism -- just by adding an ancient desert god into the equation?


I can't disagree any of this, but at the same time, I honestly don't understand what causes people to adopt or abandon religious beliefs. For some, participation is a mental habit that is hard to break. They may fear the supernatural violence that they have been threatened with. Some may believe that a modicum of religious education is beneficial to their kids. I guess all of this can be summed up in: "I don't know." It's a stubborn meme.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby fennel » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:48 pm

snoqueen wrote:Quite possibly there's a disconnect between the bishops and the interests of the laity and of women in the church, which would be no surprise given the way our whole society is right now.
Perhaps it's time for an #Occupy Church movement.

Obedience is a primary theme in the Catholic hierarchy, and Herr Benedict made his reputation as an enforcer of doctrine. Enforcement and evolution don't go hand-in-hand.
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