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The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:51 pm

WestSideYuppie wrote:"Catholic" could mean anybody who has been Baptized, or it could mean anybody who accepts the totality of Catholic doctrine, or anything in between.

Fair enough -- in my rant above, I was speaking of people who are active church members.
WestSideYuppie wrote:I have a rule of thumb, which is to avoid trying to guess somebody's beliefs from the doctrines of their sect...

It's a good rule.
But it wouldn't be if people stopped belonging to groups that don't represent their true beliefs.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:53 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote: And how is Catholic a meaningless generalization?

If the position of the Church is so far out of whack from what those at the parish level believe, why in God's name do they continue to be members? Pick a new church. Start your own.

wow. So somebody is supposed to agree with all positions of a church or get out? You disagree that there can be a diversity of opinion on a particular issue within church members?

that's one extreme and odd view of religous people.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Mon Feb 13, 2012 7:56 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote: But it wouldn't be if people stopped belonging to groups that don't represent their true beliefs.


I think you have not thought this through. I would expect that MOST religous people of all faiths share certain core tenets of their faith, but disagree by degree with many particulars.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby jman111 » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:07 pm

Jesse 'The Mind' Ventura said/ wrote:Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers.

(and later)

I do have a problem with the people who think they have some right to try to impose their beliefs on others. I hate what the fundamentalist fanatics are doing to our country. It seems as though, if everybody doesn’t accept their version of reality, that somehow invalidates it for them. Everybody must believe the same things they do. That’s what I find weak and destructive.

The same could be said for members of many non-religiously affiliated groups.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby HamsterArmageddon » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:12 pm

fennel wrote:Perhaps it's time for an #Occupy Church movement.


You would step inside of a church? Are you sure? According to COOP lore, if such an act occurred lesbian witches would burn.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:14 pm

Because they pick and choose which doctrines to obey, the American Catholic laity are often derided as "cafeteria Catholics" by the more oxthodox among the true believers. Catholic League spokesman Bill Donohue is a prime example.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby fennel » Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:41 pm

I always thought of Cafeteria Catholic as a term used to describe someone who has completed his or her penance. (By having eaten in a Catholic school cafeteria, that is.) Thankfully, I no longer think of beets as punishment. In fact, I think the taste of home-grown beets made me an apostate.

But really, the term is strongly tied to the idea of obedience and surrender.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Detritus » Mon Feb 13, 2012 9:24 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Because they pick and choose which doctrines to obey, the American Catholic laity are often derided as "cafeteria Catholics" by the more oxthodox among the true believers. Catholic League spokesman Bill Donohue is a prime example.

F'r instance, by supporting efforts to ban abortion and birth control while ignoring calls for universal health care and a compassionate approach to immigration?
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:38 pm

Huckleby wrote:would expect that MOST religous people of all faiths share certain core tenets of their faith, but disagree by degree with many particulars.

The Catholic Church spends a great deal of effort and money trying to impose their views about abortion and birth control on the rest of society. It is hardly a mere "particular" -- it is easily identifiable as part of their own perceived mission. Of course Church members should be able to disagree, but we're not talking about a question of Biblical interpretation or something here, we're talking about mandating core human behavior. And a majority of women who call themselves Catholic know it's an ignorant rule, and so they choose not to follow it. Yet they still support and protect the organization which is attempting to force onto society the very same rules they themselves flaunt. That's insane!

Huck, do you give money to any charities who spend that money on a cause you completely disagree with? Are you a member of any organization that actively seeks to force other people to live according to rules you yourself think are wrong?
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby pjbogart » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:25 am

I would distinguish between the abortion and birth control debates. The Catholic Church is adamantly pro-life and their stance on abortion is a moral one. I don't question their sincerity. The church also prohibits contraceptives, but no one is going to be excommunicated for buying some condoms or the pill. The Catholic Church has every right to oppose legislation if they feel it will force them to participate in a practice that violates their core beliefs. That said, I don't think we'd be having this conversation if we were simply talking about contraceptives.

Obama's foes on the right are trying to blur the line between contraceptives and abortion purely for political gain. Oftentimes they don't even mention contraception, they simply refer to the issue as "abortion services" or the slightly less dishonest "abortion pills." As is usually the case, Republicans are just lobbing as much shit at the wall as possible and seeing what sticks. For the Republican base, this turd's a winner.

Republicans are walking a fine line on this one, though. For the vast majority of Americans, conservative, liberal and in-between, contraceptives aren't simply acceptable, they're an ordinary part of daily life. Playing to the base is fine but if Americans get the idea that Republicans are out to restrict their access to birth control pills then the faux outrage with likely backfire.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Stella_Guru » Tue Feb 14, 2012 7:51 am

Isn't this debate really a symptom of future healthcare "reform" dysfunction? In heavily Catholic countries like Italy they are not having this battle because they have a single payer national system. Instead, we get reform safe for drug racketeers and private insurers.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:04 am

pjbogart wrote:Obama's foes on the right are trying to blur the line between contraceptives and abortion purely for political gain. Oftentimes they don't even mention contraception, they simply refer to the issue as "abortion services" or the slightly less dishonest "abortion pills." As is usually the case, Republicans are just lobbing as much shit at the wall as possible and seeing what sticks. For the Republican base, this turd's a winner.

The line is legitimately blurred. Is something like a "morning after" pill an abortion? If life begins at conception...... There are other abortifacients (abortion inducing drugs) that arguably should fall under the Hyde amendment.

Where I think many Republicans are a bit insincere is in their real agenda. Many conservatives don't really give a damn about religous conscience. And they certainly don't care about contraceptives, beyond wanting poor people to use them. Many conservative Republicans are simply anti-government, they don't like Obamacare setting ANY rules about health insurance. These people are against any compromise and just want disruption.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:25 am

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:The Catholic Church spends a great deal of effort and money trying to impose their views about abortion and birth control on the rest of society. It is hardly a mere "particular" -- it is easily identifiable as part of their own perceived mission. Of course Church members should be able to disagree, but we're not talking about a question of Biblical interpretation or something here, we're talking about mandating core human behavior. And a majority of women who call themselves Catholic know it's an ignorant rule, and so they choose not to follow it. Yet they still support and protect the organization which is attempting to force onto society the very same rules they themselves flaunt. That's insane!

Huck, do you give money to any charities who spend that money on a cause you completely disagree with? Are you a member of any organization that actively seeks to force other people to live according to rules you yourself think are wrong?

Sexual issues are at the heart of the Catholic Church obsession, but they aren't at core of the theology. Jesus never announced that life begins at conception, or thou shalt not bugger. There is so much more to church than these archaic gender/sexual flaws.

You really can't compare Catholic church to other charities or organizations. I can't put it into words. Best analogy is parents. They may be alchoholics and nose-pickers, but you still stand by them because the tie runs deep.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Mean Scenester » Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:42 am

Huckleby wrote:
Prof. Wagstaff wrote: And how is Catholic a meaningless generalization?

If the position of the Church is so far out of whack from what those at the parish level believe, why in God's name do they continue to be members? Pick a new church. Start your own.

wow. So somebody is supposed to agree with all positions of a church or get out? You disagree that there can be a diversity of opinion on a particular issue within church members?

that's one extreme and odd view of religous people.

Tell it to The Vatican, because that's pretty much their stance. And last I checked they were sort of the authority on the whole Catholicism thing. Ever hear of excommunication? More recently, remember all that talk about denying John Kerry the right to participate in Communion because of his views on abortion?

I'll tell you one thing: If little boys could get pregnant, the Catholic Church would be all about contraception.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby DCB » Tue Feb 14, 2012 10:02 am

Huckleby wrote:The line is legitimately blurred.
Is something like a "morning after" pill an abortion?

No, its not.

No.
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