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The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:02 pm

Huckleby wrote:
Prof. Wagstaff wrote:That's because they willfully keep their eyes closed.
How much "positive" counterbalances all the molested children.

How would someone leaving the Catholic church do any good ?

The Church has power over our government and can skirt the law because they have influence and money. Where do you think those things come from?

Huckleby wrote:You clearly have a very narrow view of what they are all about, you see them through the prism of the disasters.

No, I just refuse to give them a pass for all the horrific nastiness they've been responsible for. Can you think of any other groups you have this attitude towards?
And I fail to understand how any of the great things The Church does do cannot be achieved outside the confines of their rancid ideology. I don't want people to stop doing great things for their fellow humans, I want them to stop supporting an organization which is clearly and demonstrably detrimental to society. Non-Catholics do good things all the time, so why not jettison the abhorrent medieval mindset and just cut right to the good deeds? Couldn't more people be helped if money wasn't being funnelled to defending child molesters? My guess is yes.
Huckleby wrote: This is no different than seeing the Muslim church as a terrorist organization.
What is analogous in Islam to The Catholic Church in terms of adherents, power, influence, or wealth? Again, you're trying to generalize while I remain steadfastly specific.
Huckleby wrote:Why do you suppose that liberal pundits like EJ Dione, Mark Shields and Maureen Dowd remain devout Catholics? Do you think they have turned a blind eye to the institutional failings, or creaky heirarchy? Are they brainwashed or stupid?
Uh... of course they have turned a blind eye. What else can you call donating money, time, and influence to an organization as rancid as The Church? I mean, are you seriously trying to trap me with the whole "well, here's the name of a smart person who believes what you're decrying" gambit? I don't have to think someone's a complete moron to recognize that one particular aspect of their behavior is totally insane. I can acknowledge Isaac Newton's devout belief that he had calculated the precise date of the crucifixion of Jesus as idiotic while still being capable of recognizing his genius. That said, I certainly I wouldn't turn to any of the people you named for spiritual advice. Would you?
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby ilikebeans » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:15 pm

Huckleby wrote:How would someone leaving the Catholic church do any good ? Isn't it more admirable to stay and work for change in a 2000 year old institution?

I think it's pretty clear that the Vatican (or even someone more regional, like Bishop Morlino) isn't going to listen to the objections of a single church member. However, they seem to be taking note when they don't have enough seminary students to fill the need. I bet they'd pay extra special attention when the congregation isn't large enough to cover the operational costs on that elaborate cathedral.

It's not like there aren't other close options, like the Episcopal Church, or for the staunch conservatives, WELS.

Huckleby wrote:Why do you suppose that liberal pundits like EJ Dione, Mark Shields and Maureen Dowd remain devout Catholics? Do you think they have turned a blind eye to the institutional failings, or creaky heirarchy? Are they brainwashed or stupid?

Don't forget Stephen Colbert. I don't get it either, outside of "Tradition!"

No one has brought up the other (what I consider) major, ongoing crime of the Catholic Church: discouraging use of condoms in the third world. I'm not sure which should be the bigger scandal, that or the molestations.

But hey, I guess anything to expand the flock, eh?
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:26 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:The Church has power over our government and can skirt the law because they have influence and money.

They have a fair amount of political power, but that's not what's protected them, in my opinion. It's Catholics themselves that were slow to rebel.

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:No, I just refuse to give them a pass for all the horrific nastiness they've been responsible for. Can you think of any other groups you have this attitude towards?

Well, at this time in history, it is hard to come up with a group with worse scandals than the Catholic church.

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:And I fail to understand how any of the great things The Church does do cannot be achieved outside the confines of their rancid ideology.

I don't find their ideology rancid. But the archaic attitudes towards sex have nurtured some sickness.

BTW, speaking of ideology, how do you fit liberation theology Catholics into your broad strokes?

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:I don't want people to stop doing great things for their fellow humans, I want them to stop supporting an organization which is clearly and demonstrably detrimental to society

I don't see Catholics on balance as detrimental. Au contraire. What do you think of the nuns who stood up to the Bishops and supported Obamacare? These are the people on the frontlines of serving the needy, 24x7x365 days a year.

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:What is analogous in Islam to The Catholic Church in terms of adherents, power, influence, or wealth? Again, you're trying to generalize while I remain steadfastly specific.
I see Muslims and Catholics faiths as two peas in a pod. They both harbor a sickness, and I would say Catholics are much further along in dealing with their problems.

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:
Huckleby wrote:Why do you suppose that liberal pundits like EJ Dione, Mark Shields and Maureen Dowd remain devout Catholics? Do you think they have turned a blind eye to the institutional failings, or creaky heirarchy? Are they brainwashed or stupid?
Uh... of course they have turned a blind eye. What else can you call donating money, time, and influence to an organization as rancid as The Church?


You aren't paying attention to the crticisms and efforts to reform.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:30 pm

ilikebeans wrote:Don't forget Stephen Colbert. I don't get it either, outside of "Tradition!"

Well, when somehting seems crazy, often there is more to the story.

I agree with you on the no-condoms-in-third-world. I doubt they are making any actual effort to discourage condom use, just like in the U.S.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby ilikebeans » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:41 pm

Huckleby wrote:I agree with you on the no-condoms-in-third-world. I doubt they are making any actual effort to discourage condom use, just like in the U.S.

Pope claims condoms could make African Aids crisis worse

Shortly after becoming pontiff in 2005, he told senior Catholic clergy from Africa that, while the disease was a "cruel epidemic", it could not be cured through using condoms.

Addressing bishops from South Africa, Botswana, Swaziland, Namibia and Lesotho who had travelled to the Vatican for papal audience, he said: "The traditional teaching of the church has proven to be the only failsafe way to prevent the spread of HIV/Aids."

He also warned them that African life was under threat from a number of factors, including condoms.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Henry Vilas » Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:57 pm

Huckleby wrote:How would someone leaving the Catholic church do any good ? Isn't it more admirable to stay and work for change in a 2000 year old institution?

Because in its 2000 year old history the Roman Catholic Church has never listened to the hoi polloi. It's a top down hierarchy that dictates not only dogma but all matters of faith and the arcane rules required to observe that faith. Why do you think the Protestant Reformation occurred?
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:00 pm

Huckleby wrote:They have a fair amount of political power, but that's not what's protected them, in my opinion.

What's protected them is exactly the attitude you've been displaying this entire thread, to wit: "Yeah, I know. That's some bad shit... but look over here at the nice stuff. Also, it's religion, so it's different from everything else in a way which cannot be put into words." Where the problem comes in is that it's legislators, civic leaders, and law enforcement making that argument (either because they believe it or because they've been strong-armed by The Church), not just some guy on the internet.
Huckleby wrote:It's Catholics themselves that were slow to rebel.
I'm pretty sure that's what I've been saying. What's the hold-up? It's only one of the oldest institutions in the world, after all, with a miserable track record of causing human suffering.

Huckleby wrote:Well, at this time in history, it is hard to come up with a group with worse scandals than the Catholic church.

I really appreciate this acknowledgement. Sure wish I could grasp why if you believe this, you continue to insist The Church is somehow an institution worthy of preservation when there's nothing unique about its ideology necessary to accomplish charitable goals.

Huckleby wrote:BTW, speaking of ideology, how do you fit liberation theology Catholics into your broad strokes?

Especially given that liberation theology is now an inter-denominational movement, I say exactly the same thing to its Catholic practitioners as I do to any other Catholic: "Why the hell do you give money and support to an organization you know is responsible for terrible evil?"

Huckleby wrote:I don't see Catholics on balance as detrimental.
Neither do I. I see The Catholic Church as obviously detrimental, however, as I've been demonstrating now for several lengthy posts.
Huckleby wrote:What do you think of the nuns who stood up to the Bishops and supported Obamacare? These are the people on the frontlines of serving the needy, 24x7x365 days a year.
Right. And because of that, they know The Church's positions are asinine. So why do they continue to serve them? Why can't they serve the needy and not support an international conspiracy to coverup child molestation? What does The Church have that makes them seem like the most viable way to help the needy quickly? Could it be their influence and money? I wonder how we could funnel that elsewhere...?

Huckleby wrote:I see Muslims and Catholics faiths as two peas in a pod.

Ooookay... And I'm the one making sweeping generalizations, eh?
Seriously, get off the Muslim stuff. It's irrelevant.

Huckleby wrote:You aren't paying attention to the crticisms and efforts to reform.
You're right. I should be more patient. OK, I tell you what... I'll give'em another 1900 years. But that's it.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby WestSideYuppie » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:29 am

Huckleby wrote:
ilikebeans wrote:Don't forget Stephen Colbert. I don't get it either, outside of "Tradition!"

Well, when somehting seems crazy, often there is more to the story.

I agree with you on the no-condoms-in-third-world. I doubt they are making any actual effort to discourage condom use, just like in the U.S.

In the third world, their money probably buys them more influence over even more compliant and less transparent governments. It would be more charitable to spend the money building cathedrals, which at least creates employment.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby WestSideYuppie » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:32 am

Henry Vilas wrote:
Huckleby wrote:How would someone leaving the Catholic church do any good ? Isn't it more admirable to stay and work for change in a 2000 year old institution?

Because in its 2000 year old history the Roman Catholic Church has never listened to the hoi polloi. It's a top down hierarchy that dictates not only dogma but all matters of faith and the arcane rules required to observe that faith. Why do you think the Protestant Reformation occurred?

I might go further and say that the hierarchy and the laity are two religions.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Detritus » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:50 am

Henry Vilas wrote:Why do you think the Protestant Reformation occurred?

Because Luther had translated the Bible into German but no one would buy it. He even posted free samples, but no go--the Church controlled the rights to the original. 100 years of war could have been avoided with more liberal copyright laws.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby jman111 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:11 am

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:What does The Church have that makes them seem like the most viable way to help the needy quickly?

It's not about what the church offers to help the needy, it's about what the church supposedly offers in the afterlife. As is the case with many (most?) other cults, they prey on our natural fear of the unknown- of death.
Last edited by jman111 on Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:24 am


yes, the Pope is indefensible. Having a pope is indefensible. I don't think parishoners and parish priests much listen to the bosses above on matters related to sex. Actually that's a fact. I doubt there is any effort whatsoever to discourage condom use in Africa.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:34 am

Henry Vilas wrote:Because in its 2000 year old history the Roman Catholic Church has never listened to the hoi polloi. It's a top down hierarchy that dictates not only dogma but all matters of faith and the arcane rules required to observe that faith. Why do you think the Protestant Reformation occurred?

There has been a MASSIVE reformation of the Catholic Church the past 50 years. I saw first hand what happened between 60's and 70's. That reform didn't go far on sexual/gender issues, but the scandals and declining interest in becoming a nun/priest has set off another wave of reform.

The church may not have listened to the hoi polloi, but the peeps are not much listening to the bosses either. Highest rate of abortion in Europe is in Catholic Italy, right in the shadow of the Vatican.

I am a rebel without a cause. I am the last person to deal with rules and attempted mind-control of the Catholic Church. Yet I have friends and relatives who have stayed with the church, and they are no dummies, in fact they are some of the best people I know. There is GIANT positive thing going on with that Christian stuff.
Last edited by Huckleby on Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:45 am

Prof. Wagstaff wrote: The Church's positions are asinine. So why do they continue to serve them? Why can't they serve the needy and not support an international conspiracy to coverup child molestation? What does The Church have that makes them seem like the most viable way to help the needy quickly?

Most of the Church's positions are not asinine. Most priests are wonderful people. Nuns too. (Far too many priests were pampered, arrogant dicks in the old days, however.) Catholics do not passively support child molestation coverup, on the contrary, there has been an internal revolution. Most catholics ignore the asinine positions of the creaky elders.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:14 am

jman111 wrote:
Prof. Wagstaff wrote:What does The Church have that makes them seem like the most viable way to help the needy quickly?

It's not about what the church offers to help the needy, it's about what the church supposedly offers in the afterlife. As is the case with many (most?) other cults, they prey on our natural fear of the unknown- of death.

well, this is the fundamental way of any and all religions. the "pie in the sky" as the old song goes.

but there is so much more to religion. individuals get peace from their declared personal relationship with god. you shouldn't be dismissive of the catholics and muslims who are doing so much to help needy people that governments ignore.
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