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The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby wallrock » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:55 am

Huckleby wrote:Most catholics ignore the asinine positions of the creaky elders.

Isn't it rolling back though? I'm not Catholic or anything so my understanding is all anecdotal. My friend's mother worked for the church and was basically run out of Mazo by Morlino's misogynistic Opus Dei Spaniards. The priest that I had met a few years back was a pretty decent guy. From what I'm told his replacements were all terrible, albeit ideologically pure.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby jman111 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:58 am

Huckleby wrote:individuals get peace from their declared personal relationship with god.

You mean that false sense of security that comes from holding an unfounded belief in a joyous afterlife? So it's a healthy hoodwink?

Huckleby wrote:you shouldn't be dismissive of the catholics and muslims who are doing so much to help needy people that governments ignore.

Judge not...well, you probably know the rest. What makes you think I'm dismissive?
But seriously, like Wags stated earlier, why can't they offer their help outside of the cult? Why must these good deeds be driven by mistaken hope?
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:11 pm

jman111 wrote:
Huckleby wrote:individuals get peace from their declared personal relationship with god.

You mean that false sense of security that comes from holding an unfounded belief in a joyous afterlife? So it's a healthy hoodwink?

As Marx said, religion is the opiate for the masses. Religion often plays a role in keeping people politically passive, no matter how miserable their lives. They will get their reward in the afterlife.

Or as Frank Zappa sang: "The meek shall inherit nothing."
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:12 pm

jman111 wrote:
Huckleby wrote:individuals get peace from their declared personal relationship with god.

You mean that false sense of security that comes from holding an unfounded belief in a joyous afterlife? So it's a healthy hoodwink?

no, that is not what I mean. But belief in an afterlife is part of it too.

Huckleby wrote:But seriously, like Wags stated earlier, why can't they offer their help outside of the cult?

The Catholic Church is not good because of their good deeds. The good deeds come from the good ideology, manifested by selflessness.

jman111 wrote: Why must these good deeds be driven by mistaken hope?

Well, I too think the hope of an afterlife is dubious at best. there's also the peace of mind that reportedly (reported by all religions I 'spect) from having a connection with spirituality. That's here and now.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:17 pm

accepting the religous is a lot like accepting gay people. you think of them in stereotypes (which may be true as far as they go), but you don't get it until you have a couple close relationships with some people you admire in that tribe.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:39 pm

Huckleby wrote:accepting the religous is a lot like accepting gay people.

False analogy. Being gay is not a choice. What (if any) religion an adult subscribes to is a choice.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:18 pm

Huckleby wrote:Most of the Church's positions are not asinine.
I beg to differ.

Huckleby wrote: Most priests are wonderful people. Nuns too.

I have acknowledged this many times over already in my replies.
Either you're not listening or you're still trying to shift the focus of this discussion.
Huckleby wrote:Catholics do not passively support child molestation coverup, on the contrary, there has been an internal revolution.

So you say. What have these revolutionaries accomplished, exactly?
Huckleby wrote:Most catholics ignore the asinine positions of the creaky elders.
Ignoring is passive support as long as The Church actively attempts to force others to obey their rules.

Huckleby wrote:
jman111 wrote:
Prof. Wagstaff wrote:What does The Church have that makes them seem like the most viable way to help the needy quickly?

It's not about what the church offers to help the needy, it's about what the church supposedly offers in the afterlife. As is the case with many (most?) other cults, they prey on our natural fear of the unknown- of death.

well, this is the fundamental way of any and all religions. the "pie in the sky" as the old song goes.

From someone who hates it when he thinks others generalize... yeeeesh. No. You are wrong. Catholicism is a particularly morbid, death-based theology. Judaism is about living and has almost nothing to say about death. Buddhism is not about what happens after you die. Lots of Native American religions don't dwell much on death. And so on.

Huckleby wrote: individuals get peace from their declared personal relationship with god.

I have no problem with a personal relationship with God.
But I DO have a problem with people having personal relationships with hate-mongering organizations hellbent on turning back the clock on the progress of human rights. Don't you?
You see, someone's "personal relationship" is no longer personal when it begins infringing on my or anyone else's rights.

Huckleby wrote:The Catholic Church is not good because of their good deeds. The good deeds come from the good ideology, manifested by selflessness.

What is this "good ideology" of which you speak?
Be specific.
Then explain which parts of that exist solely within the Church and are unattainable via other philosophic avenues.
Huckleby wrote:accepting the religous is a lot like accepting gay people.

Bullshit.
Gay people are biologically gay. They have no choice in the matter.
Religion is either forced on you by your family or community or a conscious choice made after reflection.
Gay people do not have to make excuses and ignore reality to convince themselves that they are gay.

Huckleby wrote: you think of them in stereotypes (which may be true as far as they go), but you don't get it until you have a couple close relationships with some people you admire in that tribe.

And stop acting like you're the only person here who "gets" religion and knows people who are religious. You sound stupid and insulting when you trot this line out. I know and love people from many different religions and backgrounds. I can admire individual Catholics for anything they do except continuing to give The Catholic Church a free pass to run roughshod over my society because they refuse to look past their ideological blind spot!
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby DCB » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:27 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
Huckleby wrote:accepting the religous is a lot like accepting gay people.

False analogy. Being gay is not a choice. What (if any) religion an adult subscribes to is a choice.

Its a double false analogy.
The Catholics are trying to impose their agenda on 98% of their members who are choosing to ignore their doctrine. They want to impose their agenda on non-Catholics who work for them. And if they had their way, they would impose their agenda on the entire country.

Gays are asking for equal rights, like getting married. That doesn't impose a burden on me at all, even if I'm gay.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby pjbogart » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:35 pm

jman111 wrote:
Huckleby wrote:individuals get peace from their declared personal relationship with god.

You mean that false sense of security that comes from holding an unfounded belief in a joyous afterlife? So it's a healthy hoodwink?


Religion offers people far more than a belief in the afterlife. You can be a really disgusting human being 6 days a week but as long as you pray on Sunday your entire conscience will be clear. Think of the possibilities! You can cheat on your wife, beat your children, steal from your boss, harbor deep-seated hatred for anyone who's even slightly different than you (actually, you don't have to ask for forgiveness for that, it's part of your religion) and on Sunday you simply say, "oh, crap... sorry about that," and you're instantly a heavenly bound perfect human being.

Religion doesn't just give you the option to clear your conscience, it gives you license to have no conscience at all!
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby DCB » Thu Feb 16, 2012 1:36 pm

All this discussion on the relative merits of the religion is irrelevant. The Bishops are just playing a political role. If they really were so uptight about this issue, they would have raised it in the 28 states that already have a similar rule. Or the hospitals, universities or other Catholic-affiliated institutions that also cover contraception.

Its just about wrinkly old men trying to control the female population.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/02/1 ... via=blog_1
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby jman111 » Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:00 pm

pjbogart wrote:...and you're instantly a heavenly bound perfect human being.

See? There's that dangling carrot.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:53 pm

DCB wrote:Its a double false analogy.
The Catholics are trying to impose their agenda on 98% ...

"Catholics" aren't trying to do anything at all. The heirarchy are trying to stand on their principles. Since the church elders are unable to have any effect on their own church members in regard to contraceptive usage, they hardly expect to have much impact on employees, let alone impose an agenda. The argument really is about principle and dignity, from their standpoint.

As far as gays & catholics, the only commonality is that both groups have been misunderstood by outsiders, you have to know some people in those groups personally.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Thu Feb 16, 2012 6:58 pm

DCB wrote:Its just about wrinkly old men trying to control the female population.

Historically, that is the backdrop.
Catholics across the spectrum were angry at the initial mandate, which had much less accomodation than the state mandates.

I think the compromise offered by Obama diffuses the crisis.

You can continue to believe that catholics are stupid sheep, bowing before wrinkly old men. It isn't true, and just reflects a narrow-minded ideology. Left-wing bigotry.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby WestSideYuppie » Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:28 pm

Huckleby wrote:accepting the religous is a lot like accepting gay people. you think of them in stereotypes (which may be true as far as they go), but you don't get it until you have a couple close relationships with some people you admire in that tribe.


Acceptance is a red herring, at least for me. I want the religious to stop harming people. That's all.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:37 pm

WestSideYuppie wrote:Acceptance is a red herring, at least for me. I want the religious to stop harming people. That's all.

OK, well Prof. Wagstaff & others have characterized Catholics as stupid, blind, morally cowardly, etc. for remaining in a church that is completely rancid. That is on the same level of ignorance as people who don't think gay relationships count for much.
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