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The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:57 pm

Huckleby wrote:That is on the same level of ignorance as people who don't think gay relationships count for much.
Enough with the gay thing!
THERE IS NO COMPARISON HERE.

You want an analogy, here's a much better one:

My father was a Boy Scout his entire youth. He loved being a Scout and he loved their organization. Once he was too old to be a scout, he continued to support The Boys Scouts financially as well as through volunteer work. He was a troop leader for years, even when he had no children in the Scouts. But sometime around the late '80s, he could no longer do so with a clear conscience. He wrote them a letter, explaining his displeasure with their policies regarding homosexuality, and resigned his membership. He assured them if they ever changed those policies, he would gladly return, as he had great respect for virtually everything else they did. This was not an easy thing for him -- The Boy Scouts had been a big part of his life for as long as he could remember. But it was the right thing to do and he knew it because he could not in good conscience support an anti-homosexual organization. He's managed to find plenty of other community and youth-oriented activities to fill the void left when he turned his back on the Scouts, but now he doesn't have to hem and haw and make excuses for the prejudice of others. He's still friends with many of his old Scout buddies because he respects them and likes them in just about every other way. But he's never shied away from expressing his displeasure to them about the organization they still support. Nor should he.

Huckleby wrote:Wagstaff & others have characterized Catholics as stupid, blind, morally cowardly, etc. for remaining in a church that is completely rancid.

Gosh, I'm sorry, but passively supporting attempts to restrict the rights of others and belonging to an organization with institutionalized child molestation ARE stupid, blind, and cowardly things to do!

Look: You can do something stupid and not be a complete moron. You can be blind to certain facts while still acknowledging others. You can be a coward in one situation and the bravest man in the world in others. Why can you not grasp that I can think someone can be overall a great guy but still have a really ugly ideological blind spot? The only generalization I've made about all Catholics is that they choose to remain Catholic in spite of the overwhelming evidence that The Catholic Church is a despicable organization.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby DCB » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:14 pm

Huckleby wrote:
DCB wrote:Its a double false analogy.
The Catholics are trying to impose their agenda on 98% ...

"Catholics" aren't trying to do anything at all. The heirarchy are trying to stand on their principles. Since the church elders are unable to have any effect on their own church members in regard to contraceptive usage, they hardly expect to have much impact on employees, let alone impose an agenda.
.
They are actively trying to prevent implementation of a national policy on health insurance - a policy that is generally recognized as beneficial to women's health.

I don't know why you are so willfully ignorant.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby DCB » Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:34 pm

Huckleby wrote:
DCB wrote:Its just about wrinkly old men trying to control the female population.

Historically, that is the backdrop.
Catholics across the spectrum were angry at the initial mandate, which had much less accomodation than the state mandates.

I think the compromise offered by Obama diffuses the crisis.

You can continue to believe that catholics are stupid sheep, bowing before wrinkly old men. It isn't true, and just reflects a narrow-minded ideology. Left-wing bigotry.

You are misrepresenting my view. The people raising the stink over this very sensible policy are the Bishops. I haven't offered any opinions about Catholics as a whole. I did refer to the widely reported fact that pretty much all Catholics in the US ignore the doctrine against using contraception.

There was never any 'crisis'. The Bishops had a conniption.

And the compromise did not appease the Bishops. They are still on a jihad to oppose medicine that every rational human being considers normal. Here is one bishop raising the specter of violence:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/02/1 ... via=search
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby pjbogart » Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:47 pm

DCB wrote:There was never any 'crisis'. The Bishops had a conniption.

And the compromise did not appease the Bishops. They are still on a jihad to oppose medicine that every rational human being considers normal. Here is one bishop raising the specter of violence:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/02/1 ... via=search


Precisely. And all you need to know to be certain that they're simply playing politics is that the exact same Catholic Church currently screaming about God's law are already providing exactly the services they're screaming that they don't want to provide (and more).

At the risk of being repetitive, here are the links to some services offered under my Dean/St Mary's policy:

How to take Birth Control Pills

Sterilization

Abortions
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:04 pm

pjbogart wrote: At the risk of being repetitive, here are the links to some services offered under my Dean/St Mary's policy:


What happens locally says very little about the motives of the council of bishops. We already know that Catholics on down the line ignore the upper heirarchy on sexual issues.

I don't know why it is necessary to speculate on larger political motives to the Bishops response to the contraceptive mandate. Seems pretty obvious to me that the angry response by Catholics as a whole is evidence enough that the Bishops are sincere. Having a federal mandate declaring their beliefs wrong is a humilation and affront.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:09 pm

DCB wrote:And the compromise did not appease the Bishops. They are still on a jihad to oppose medicine that every rational human being considers normal.


abortion-inducing pills can be rationally opposed by people who believe life begins at conception. And their belief about conception is not irrational.

Why does every argument descend into people questioning the rationality and dark motives of the other side? The ability to see both sides of an argument seems to count for very little.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:18 pm

DCB wrote: They are actively trying to prevent implementation of a national policy on health insurance - a policy that is generally recognized as beneficial to women's health.

I don't know why you are so willfully ignorant.


well, yes, they are trying to stop a policy as it applies to their businesses. So what?

from the standpoint of obama, issue is all about women's health. from the bishop's view its about their religous power and freedom. I don't see a slam-dunk argument on either side; employed women can still buy their own birth control pills even if they are not covered by insurance.

I come down against the Bishops, but I respect their side of the argument.
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Re:

Postby Huckleby » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:27 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:The only generalization I've made about all Catholics is that they choose to remain Catholic in spite of the overwhelming evidence that The Catholic Church is a despicable organization.


the evidence that the church is despicable is not overwhelming to someone who looks closely, and talks to Catholics.
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Re: Re:

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:38 pm

Huckleby wrote:
Prof. Wagstaff wrote:The only generalization I've made about all Catholics is that they choose to remain Catholic in spite of the overwhelming evidence that The Catholic Church is a despicable organization.

the evidence that the church is despicable is not overwhelming to someone who looks closely, and talks to Catholics.

I'm closer to this issue than you. I was born and raised a Catholic, baptised and confirmed. Went to 12 years of Catholic schools where religion was taught on a daily basis.

I'm with Wags on this. I decided when I got orders to Vietnam (luckily, I never ended up going, but that is another story for another day), to get new dogs tags that listed my religion as no pref., as there was no option for nonbeliever nor atheist.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby jman111 » Fri Feb 17, 2012 12:49 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:I'm with Wags on this. I decided... to get new dogs tags that listed my religion as no pref., as there was no option for nonbeliever nor atheist.

Funny to read this today. Just recently I was explaining to someone why I had two old sets of dog tags- 'twas because I had requested replacement tags that included "No Pref Rec'd" in place of "Lutheran" when I made the conscious decison to officially distance myself from my former church.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby DCB » Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:17 pm

Huckleby wrote:
DCB wrote:And the compromise did not appease the Bishops. They are still on a jihad to oppose medicine that every rational human being considers normal.


abortion-inducing pills can be rationally opposed by people who believe life begins at conception. And their belief about conception is not irrational.

Individuals have religious freedom to choose for themselves. But the bishops want to over-rule the rights of individuals to make their own decisions about which medicine might be ethical.

Huckleby wrote:Why does every argument descend into people questioning the rationality and dark motives of the other side? The ability to see both sides of an argument seems to count for very little.

Representatives for the bishops have stated openly that they would like contraception coverage to be eliminated, completely, for everyone. That's not 'questioning'. That is in fact what they said.
http://news.yahoo.com/bishops-plan-aggr ... 48048.html

So I do think I see both sides of the argument. One side wants to give any woman easy access to medicine that will improve her health, which she can choose or not depending on her own values, and the advice of her doctor. And one thinks their religion gives them the right to interfere with that access.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby ilikebeans » Fri Feb 17, 2012 1:43 pm

DCB wrote:Representatives for the bishops have stated openly that they would like contraception coverage to be eliminated, completely, for everyone. That's not 'questioning'. That is in fact what they said.
http://news.yahoo.com/bishops-plan-aggr ... 48048.html

It goes far beyond that now, as per the article:

And now, they are aiming higher still, lobbying Congress to enact a law that would let any employer opt out of covering any medical treatment he disagreed with as a matter of his personal faith.

So, for instance, a pizzeria owner who objected to childhood vaccinations on religious grounds would be able to request an insurance plan that did not cover them, in effect overriding a federal requirement that vaccinations be provided free with any health-insurance plan.

In this quote alone we have complete justification for a) single-payer health care independent of your employer, and b) giving a hearty middle finger to the Catholic church and leaving it.

Edit: and c) rescinding the tax-exempt status of the Catholic Church in this country, due to their political lobbying efforts.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby wack wack » Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:13 pm

ilikebeans wrote:Edit: and c) rescinding the tax-exempt status of the Catholic Church in this country, due to their political lobbying efforts.


Let's rescind tax-exempt status for all religious organizations, and knock religion down to "hobby" status for legal purposes. Religion in general has way, way, WAY overgrown its britches in America. Time to reel it in.

The idea that any religious organization is afforded almost equal debate status with the government is revolting and absurd.

Love God? Keep it to yourself.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby rabble » Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:49 pm

wack wack wrote:Let's rescind tax-exempt status for all religious organizations, and knock religion down to "hobby" status for legal purposes. Religion in general has way, way, WAY overgrown its britches in America. Time to reel it in.

Yeah! Those damn unions are gettin away with murder! We've gotta -

Wait, what? Religion? No fuckin way. UNIONS are too big. Religion isn't nearly big ENOUGH. What the hell's wrong with you soulless pagans!
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Fri Feb 17, 2012 2:55 pm

Huckleby wrote:The ability to see both sides of an argument seems to count for very little.

I can see both sides of this argument.
One one side, there's what's best for society, on the hand is what The Catholic Church wants.
These two sides are clearly incompatible.

Huckleby wrote:the evidence that the church is despicable is not overwhelming to someone who looks closely, and talks to Catholics.

Ho-hum. Yes, Huck -- I've never talked to a Catholic before. Heck, there's only over a billion of'em, so where would I ever meet one?
:roll: (That's right, your insistence on trotting out the same defeated argument for the umpteenth time has forced me to break out an emoticon. I hope you're happy.)
As for the first half of your statement, I wholeheartedly disagree. The evidence that the Church is despicable is more obvious the more you look. You're the one who's only choosing to look at "one side" here. It's a shame the side you're ignoring is the one where millions of people are abused and/or deprived of basic health care.
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