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The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

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Re: Re:

Postby Huckleby » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:08 pm

Henry Vilas wrote: I'm closer to this issue than you. I was born and raised a Catholic, baptised and confirmed. Went to 12 years of Catholic schools where religion was taught on a daily basis.


Ahhh, I'll match my catholic cred with yours and raise you a couple. My family was very involved with catholic church in various ways. I did escape Catholic school in 8th grade. A close family friend was a Catholic priest who left the Church. Plus close to a gay cousin who left seminary, but remains devout 40 years later. Uhhh, many more interactions.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:15 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote: I can see both sides of this argument.
One one side, there's what's best for society, on the hand is what The Catholic Church wants.
These two sides are clearly incompatible...... It's a shame the side you're ignoring is the one where millions of people are abused and/or deprived of basic health care.


The church is leading to millions being deprived of basic health care!?

There are some issues where the church is out to lunch. Overall they are a force for good. You seem to see the church's mission as molestation. You have as much need to get with the times as the Catholic heirarchy does. The church has changed a lot and continues to evolve.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:18 pm

wack wack wrote: Let's rescind tax-exempt status for all religious organizations, and knock religion down to "hobby" status for legal purposes. Religion in general has way, way, WAY overgrown its britches in America. Time to reel it in.

The idea that any religious organization is afforded almost equal debate status with the government is revolting and absurd.

Love God? Keep it to yourself.

I agree completely with rescinding tax-exempt status.

But I think religions should be openly active politically. Would you have objected to the church participation in ending slavery, or promoting civil rights in 60's? I was certainly happy when the nuns pushed Obamacare over the finish line.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Fri Feb 17, 2012 5:52 pm

Huckleby wrote:
You seem to see the church's mission as molestation.

Just once would you argue with what I actually say instead of just making shit up? When did I ever say anything like this?
The Church's stated mission is irrelevant to this conversation. I'm talking about their abhorrent actions. Forgive me, but "Hey! Look over here at these people we're helping instead of raping" hardly seems to qualify as "overall... a force for good", but I guess we just use different karmic balance sheets.

Huckleby wrote:
The church has changed a lot and continues to evolve.

So you keep saying. So far all you've got is some nuns saying they disagree with some bishops. Workplace disagreement is hardly the equivalent of "ending decades of widespread abuse" in my book, but YMMV.

So tell me, St. Huck, how has The Church changed? BE SPECIFIC.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:06 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote: "Hey! Look over here at these people we're helping instead of raping" hardly seems to qualify as "overall... a force for good


In other words, you see the church's mission as one of molestation.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:09 pm

Huckleby wrote:
Prof. Wagstaff wrote: "Hey! Look over here at these people we're helping instead of raping" hardly seems to qualify as "overall... a force for good


In other words, you see the church's mission as one of molestation.

How can you possibly think those two statements are equivalent?
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:37 pm

How can you be unaware of your lack of objectivity?

You make statements dripping of hatred. OK, fine, you see only one side of the story.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby rabble » Fri Feb 17, 2012 7:50 pm

Huckleby wrote:How can you be unaware of your lack of objectivity?

You make statements dripping of hatred. OK, fine, you see only one side of the story.

How can anyone, including you, claim to be objective about this?

I'm from a Catholic family, was an altar boy, and did eight years of parochial school. I don't hate the church but I sure as hell don't see it in the lovely little rosy haze you keep projecting.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:00 pm

rabble wrote:lovely little rosy haze you keep projecting.


that is your invention.

I see the church doing, on balance, more good than harm. And I don't demonize Catholics who remain in the church, such as we've seen here. Political correctness allows over-the-top scorn towards Catholics, much like we've seen against gays in right-wing environs.
Last edited by Huckleby on Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby rabble » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:02 pm

Huckleby wrote:
rabble wrote:lovely little rosy haze you keep projecting.


that is your invention.

I see the church doing, on balance, more good than harm. And I don't demonize Catholics who remain in the church, such as we've seen here.

Your objectivity is an example for us all.

Seriously dude, you actually ARE objective on so many things. It's kind of sad that you can't step back a little further from this one.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:02 pm

Huckleby wrote:How can you be unaware of your lack of objectivity?

Harboring known child molesters is objectively wrong, isn't it?
Huckleby wrote:You make statements dripping of hatred.

I would argue my statements are made in anger, not hate. And damn right, I'm angry. Don't attacks on your hard-won rights and freedoms make you angry? If I shouldn't be angry at an organization responsible for a decades-long conspiracy to commit sexual assault on children, who the fuck should I be angry with? What exactly does it take to get your dander up, Huck?
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:03 pm

rabble wrote: Seriously dude, you actually ARE objective on so many things. It's kind of sad that you can't step back a little further from this one.


You think I am pro-Catholic Church? Not hardly.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:04 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:Harboring known child molesters is objectively wrong, isn't it?

The anger over that situation is shared by everyone. You don't own that issue.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:08 pm

My heart is with the freedom from religion people. I am angry that no atheist dares run for higher public office. I enjoy some lampooning of religion. But I also respect religous people - their faith AND church - based on personal experience.

why, I say "Goddamn America!!!"
Image

(As a Hillary supporter, I much enjoyed the Reverand Wright days.)
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Fri Feb 17, 2012 8:19 pm

Huckleby wrote:I see the church doing, on balance, more good than harm.

Heck, you may be right. I fail to see why that matters.

Criminal organizations should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Should we have given Al Capone a pass because he established soup kitchens?

Huckleby wrote:
Prof. Wagstaff wrote:Harboring known child molesters is objectively wrong, isn't it?

The anger over that situation is shared by everyone.

Because it's indefensible!
The problem is that nobody in a position to actually affect change seems to be doing anything about it. (You claim I'm wrong on this point, but have so far ducked every request for evidence.) You blame the tiny minority who run the show, but if the rank-and-file would stop supporting them, they'd be forced to change -- and fast -- or perish.
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