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The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby pjbogart » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:09 pm

Huckleby wrote:
pjbogart wrote: At the risk of being repetitive, here are the links to some services offered under my Dean/St Mary's policy:


What happens locally says very little about the motives of the council of bishops. We already know that Catholics on down the line ignore the upper heirarchy on sexual issues.


I'm calling bullshit on that one. We all know that the Catholic Church is set up more or less like a Royal theocracy. The Pope is the king and the Cardinals and Bishops oversee their territories to enforce the will of the king. If the Pope says, "God commands that our medical services and insurance never provide birth control or abortions," then that is the law. It is not up to local Bishops to make exceptions.

If Dean/St. Mary's offers birth control to its policy holders then the Catholic Church is explicitly or implicitly condoning the practice. It makes no sense to say that God forbids contraception, but we'll make an exception in Madison, Wisconsin. And New York State. And California. But God's word is still law so we need to make sure that the PPACA doesn't force us to give contraceptives to people in Alabama.

Either the Catholic Church forbids contraceptives or it doesn't. There are no "local exceptions" to God's word.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby someone else » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:29 pm

pjbogart wrote:Either the Catholic Church forbids contraceptives or it doesn't. There are no "local exceptions" to God's word.


If you believe that, you are ignorant to the realities of religious culture history. The Catholic Church has fine tuned it's "word" many many times. There is more than one Catholic sect and more than one "word of God".

Widespread liberal Catholic hate is another example of pushing the independents to the right.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby pjbogart » Fri Feb 17, 2012 9:44 pm

someone else wrote:Widespread liberal Catholic hate is another example of pushing the independents to the right.


I know you believe that your "I'm an independent" schtick is convincing but I assure you, you're not being "pushed to the right." You started out as a right-winger and you think that claims that you're being pushed will somehow convince people to join you.

But all indications are that independents, contrary to your assertions, are drifting left (or they're staying put and the Republican Party is simply drifting right). Romney they can stomach, Gingrich and Santorum can't win due to a lack of moderate or independent support. There's a reason that the power players like Karl Rove want Romney... they know he has a chance to win. The polls certainly don't back up your assertion, no matter how vehemently you claim it to be true.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby someone else » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:00 pm

pjbogart wrote:
someone else wrote:Widespread liberal Catholic hate is another example of pushing the independents to the right.


I know you believe that your "I'm an independent" schtick is convincing but I assure you, you're not being "pushed to the right." You started out as a right-winger and you think that claims that you're being pushed will somehow convince people to join you.

But all indications are that independents, contrary to your assertions, are drifting left (or they're staying put and the Republican Party is simply drifting right). Romney they can stomach, Gingrich and Santorum can't win due to a lack of moderate or independent support. There's a reason that the power players like Karl Rove want Romney... they know he has a chance to win. The polls certainly don't back up your assertion, no matter how vehemently you claim it to be true.


It would have been healthier for you to evacuate that shit out of the appropriate orafice.

Most independents I know in town used to vote democrat, myself included. You spend way too much time on the forums and less time out in real life.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Stebben84 » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:20 pm

Profanity aside, please give examples or anecdotes if you will.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Fri Feb 17, 2012 10:57 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:The problem is that nobody in a position to actually affect change seems to be doing anything about it.

When is the last time you read of a Catholic priest committing a sex crime?
Both church members and church leaders are hyper-vigilent. They've been through a wrenching 20 years. You're the one with the claims of a rancid church. Where is the evidence that child molestation persists?

http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/ ... drel-times

George Weigel, the Chair of Catholic Studies at the Ethics and Public Policy Center in Washington, District of Columbia, noted: "In the United States alone, there are reportedly some 39 million victims of childhood sexual abuse... According to other recent studies, 2 percent of sex abuse offenders were Catholic priests—a phenomenon that spiked between the mid-1960s and the mid-1980s but seems to have virtually disappeared... [Yet] the sexual abuse story in the global media is almost entirely a Catholic story, in which the Catholic Church is portrayed as the epicenter of the sexual abuse of the young."
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Stebben84 » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:21 pm

So 40000 cases of sexual abuse in the church is within acceptable levels?
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Stebben84 » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:21 pm

So 40000 cases of sexual abuse in the church is within acceptable levels?
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:34 pm

Huckleby wrote:
Prof. Wagstaff wrote:The problem is that nobody in a position to actually affect change seems to be doing anything about it.

When is the last time you read of a Catholic priest committing a sex crime?

http://richarddawkins.net/articles/5958 ... -countries

I know, I know, it ain't kids, so it doesn't count, right?
Here's the thing: Reports are still coming in of newly-brought-to-light molestation cases from decades ago. I'm sure you're aware that most victims of childhood molestation don't come forward until they're adults. Unless I see a significant decrease in such reports, I see no reason to assume abuse has stopped, although I certainly can't rule it out. But it's irrelevant anyway, as the conspiracy to protect child molesters is obviously still operating, otherwise The Church would have come forward of their own volition in every single one of these cases. Instead, they choose to remain silent when they can, often only revealing the names of abusers who have already died.


Here's a particularly revealing interview with one Cardinal Egan, a decade after "dealing" with some abuse cases (which, he assures us, weren't his cases at all, but rather his predecessor's):

Cardinal Egan wrote:I did exactly what we were told to do. And as a result, not one of them (the accused priests) did a thing out of line. Those whom I could prove, I got rid of; those whom I couldn’t prove, I didn’t. But I had them under control.

Cardinal Egan wrote:There really wasn’t much in the way of hidden. I don’t think even now you’re obligated to report them [the abuse cases] in CT.

CT Magazine: In 2002, you wrote a letter to parishioners in which you said, “If in hindsight we discover that mistakes may have been made as regards prompt removal of priests and assistance to victims, I am deeply sorry.”
EGAN: First of all, I should never have said that. I did say if we did anything wrong, I’m sorry, but I don’t think we did anything wrong.


I guess you're right. It does sound like some of the higher-ups are changing. This guy's now less apologetic and more in denial than he was a decade ago. It's change, alright, but I wouldn't exactly call it progress.

http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2010/03/scoundrel-times
According to other recent studies, 2 percent of sex abuse offenders were Catholic priests—a phenomenon that spiked between the mid-1960s and the mid-1980s but seems to have virtually disappeared... [Yet] the sexual abuse story in the global media is almost entirely a Catholic story, in which the Catholic Church is portrayed as the epicenter of the sexual abuse of the young."
In the first place, if you limit the abuse at the hands of Church officials to only priests, you're missing a lot of cases. But that's neither here nor there as I've certainly never suggested the Church is the only, or even most likely place for kids to get raped. It's just the only organization I know of which conspired to coverup and protect molesters since WWII. Can you think of any others? And considering how much influence The Church has, I find that extremely unsettling. Why don't you again, exactly?
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:44 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote: Here's the thing: Reports are still coming in of newly-brought-to-light molestation cases from decades ago. I'm sure you're aware that most victims of childhood molestation don't come forward until they're adults.

You claim nothing has changed. If that were the case, reports from after 1990 should remain high. They have not. You are wrong.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Fri Feb 17, 2012 11:47 pm

Stebben84 wrote:So 40000 cases of sexual abuse in the church is within acceptable levels?

of course not. the relevant point is those cases occurred 25 to 50 years ago.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Sat Feb 18, 2012 12:24 am

Huckleby wrote:
Prof. Wagstaff wrote: Here's the thing: Reports are still coming in of newly-brought-to-light molestation cases from decades ago. I'm sure you're aware that most victims of childhood molestation don't come forward until they're adults.

You claim nothing has changed. If that were the case, reports from after 1990 should remain high. They have not. You are wrong.

Because you say so?
Again, The Church has a long history of coverups. Since there's seemingly a never-ending stream of new cases being brought to light, I find it quite plausible that we'll see more cases from the last twenty years start to emerge as that generation grows older. Still not sure how fewer incidents now absolves them of their recent past anyway. I wonder if anyone has ever tried as a defense, "Yes, I was involved in a conspiracy to commit many murders over several decades, but I've stopped murdering now, and I'll do everything I can to make sure I never murder again (although I won't come clean about any murders you may not already know about), so how 'bout I just make a half-ass apology, cut ya a check, and go about my business?"
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:46 am

Prof. Wagstaff wrote: Still not sure how fewer incidents now absolves them of their recent past anyway.

You are dodging and weaving. You start with position that the catholic church remains unreformed and unrepentent. Then confronted with the information that there are fewer child abuse cases - actually almost none since around 1990 -you move goal posts, nothing they do absolves them of past. And maybe its all a coverup anyway.

This is a stupid argument. Your mind is made-up and closed.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Average Joe » Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:59 am

Any reforms the church made were due to the financial burden of being caught, not because of any sense of urgency or moral wrong doing by the clergy.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:01 am

someone else wrote:Widespread liberal Catholic hate is another example of pushing the independents to the right.


Well, OK, but what about the right-wingers shaking their fists at a mosque in NY?

Bigotry is the way of mankind. And there is usually a basis to it. Muslims tolerated terrorism too long. Catholics covered-up sicko priests. Gays promoted the career of Barbra Streisand.
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