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The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:18 am

rabble wrote:The whole "understand the opposition" and "see it from their perspective" tactic is disingenuous at best because A, they are making no effort to reciprocate or compromise, B, it implies absolution for doing what they're doing, and C, implies that perhaps we should give them what they want.

Furthermore, it implies that all claims should be judged on equal footing regardless of the evidence or even the likelihood.

Then there's this conundrum: If science, as Huckleby and so many other goofballs claim, is really just another religion*, then what about the religious freedom of those who believe the scientific worldview?

Bonus question: What if I started a religion that has as a central precept the notion that multi-child families are an abomination unto the Lord, and therefore all pregnancies after the first successful childbirth must be terminated? And what if my book of scripture (dictated to me personally by God himself, as far as you know) stated that "life begins at contraction". Should our laws be rewritten to reflect such beliefs? After all, those are just "other perspectives", right?

*It's so not.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Tue Mar 13, 2012 12:48 pm

rabble wrote:And it is in the news because it is powerful enough to directly influence matters of state.
The church is not powerful. 40 million Catholic voters, many concentrated in swing states like Pennsylvania and Ohio, are powerful. If Catholics only numbered in the thousands, the government would have just rolled over them without making any accomodations.

Are you alleging that the church has some sort of strong, corrupt influence? It sounds like you are trafficing in dark inuendo.

rabble wrote:when one sect has reached a position of power, does this grant them the right to pick and choose which laws of the land they abide by?

It's not a simple question. Religous freedom has to be balanced against other values, and no, religous freedom doesn't always win.

Your premise is bogus. The Catholic Church is not able to control their own flock, let alone have much influence on the wider culture. Perhaps a few thousand women currently in their employ choose to shun birth control because they have to pay out of pocket. This sucks, but how big of an impact does this have in a country of 320 million people?

In the bigger picture, the Church is not imposing their beliefs. The government is imposing their values on the church, forcing them to provide birth control and abortion-inducing drugs in their insurance plans.

rabble wrote:Rather than understanding their reasons for doing what they do, would it not be more pertinent to discuss how they are able to get away with chipping apart the separation of church and state, and the long-term ramifications of that upon our culture?
The Catholic Church is not getting away with a damn thing. They are losing the battle with the Obama administration.
Your rhetoric reflects bias, not reality. Your tone is similar to the Catholic priest who claims that Obama means to destroy the Catholic Church by insidiously chipping away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltTd81XpDnc
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Stebben84 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:12 pm

Huckleby wrote:The church is not powerful. 40 million Catholic voters, many concentrated in swing states like Pennsylvania and Ohio, are powerful. If Catholics only numbered in the thousands, the government would have just rolled over them without making any accomodations.


FWIW:

http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

Catholicism is the largest single denomination in the US. Don't tell me they're powerless.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby dave esmond » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:14 pm

Huckleby wrote: The government is imposing their values on the church, forcing them to provide birth control and abortion-inducing drugs in their insurance plans.


Wrong.

Churches are exempt.

Church affiliated organizations aren't churches.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby rabble » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:16 pm

Huckleby wrote:Are you alleging that the church has some sort of strong, corrupt influence? It sounds like you are trafficing in dark inuendo.

Their influence is MUCH stronger today that it was even ten years ago, as evidenced by how much publicity they're getting. As evidenced by your own, biased, one-sided, narrow-minded rhetoric. You absolutely refuse to even entertain the idea that my suggestions have any basis in fact or logic. You have dismissed them out of hand, claiming YOUR arguments are the only ones worth discussing and anyone who says otherwise is narrow minded.
Huckleby wrote:Your rhetoric reflects bias, not reality. Your tone is similar to the Catholic priest who claims that Obama means to destroy the Catholic Church by insidiously chipping away.

Yes. You, the Church, and I are all biased. The difference is that you claim you're not.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:29 pm

Stebben84 wrote:Catholicism is the largest single denomination in the US. Don't tell me they're powerless.

Not only that, The Catholic Church is the oldest and largest religious organization in the history of the world. You don't achieve that kind of longevity or size without some measure of power and influence.

Certainly, Huckleby must grant that The Church is powerful enough to withstand the revelation that it engaged in a criminal conspiracy to protect child molesters for decades. I can't think of too many other groups who have such power.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:59 pm

Stebben84 wrote:.pewforum.org/reports
Catholicism is the largest single denomination in the US. Don't tell me they're powerless.


Right, Catholics are powerful from a democratic standpoint, which was my point. The Church is has some ability to sway parisioners, but Catholics appear to pretty independent on social/political issues.

You can see the degree of their power in the latest dust up. The Obama administration was clearly concerned about the political fallout, they made an accomodation. But they didn't totally reverse course, they mostly held their ground.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:03 pm

dave esmond wrote:
Huckleby wrote: The government is imposing their values on the church, forcing them to provide birth control and abortion-inducing drugs in their insurance plans.


Wrong.

Churches are exempt.

Church affiliated organizations aren't churches.


The affiliated organizations are owned by the catholic church. So the Church is forced to provide birth control and abortion inducing drugs.

Your point has a bit of validity, since it is a reminder that gov is trying to make accomodations. But in the main, the distinction isn't so important.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:06 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:The Church is powerful enough to withstand the revelation that it engaged in a criminal conspiracy to protect child molesters for decades. I can't think of too many other groups who have such power.


They did not survive because of political or financial power. They endured because of their positive strengths: most Catholics chose to repair rather than discard.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:14 pm

Huckleby wrote:
Prof. Wagstaff wrote:The Church is powerful enough to withstand the revelation that it engaged in a criminal conspiracy to protect child molesters for decades. I can't think of too many other groups who have such power.


They did not survive because of political or financial power.

I see you know little of history.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:18 pm

rabble wrote: Their influence is MUCH stronger today that it was even ten years ago, as evidenced by how much publicity they're getting.
They're getting publicity mainly because Fox News and other right wing media has pumped the story. Its a confluence of interests.

rabble wrote: As evidenced by your own, biased, one-sided, narrow-minded rhetoric. You absolutely refuse to even entertain the idea that my suggestions have any basis in fact or logic. You have dismissed them out of hand, claiming YOUR arguments are the only ones worth discussing and anyone who says otherwise is narrow minded.
I strongly disagree with your opinions surrounding Catholics. nothing more or less.

rabble wrote:
Huckleby wrote:Your rhetoric reflects bias, not reality. Your tone is similar to the Catholic priest who claims that Obama means to destroy the Catholic Church by insidiously chipping away.
Yes. You, the Church, and I are all biased. The difference is that you claim you're not.

I hope you will give that priest a listen.

My bias? I am motivated to defend groups I see getting a raw deal, particularly when they are being lambasted by the local majority opinion. I argued passionately for the N.Y. mosque in a conservative forum. I guess I am a contrarian. I have been a longtime passionate supporter for gay rights, but I'm falling off that bandwagon because it's gotten too easy.
Regarding CAtholic Church specifically: I am cuckoo for Obamacare, the Church is making a direct political assault on it, the Catholic Church are my political enemies. I really am defending the Church in a narrow sense. I don't like the over-heated rhetoric, and I feel their pain regarding the mandate. But in the end, I certainly am cheering for the gov to get their way.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby dave esmond » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:19 pm

Huckleby wrote:
dave esmond wrote:
Huckleby wrote: The government is imposing their values on the church, forcing them to provide birth control and abortion-inducing drugs in their insurance plans.


Wrong.

Churches are exempt.

Church affiliated organizations aren't churches.


The affiliated organizations are owned by the catholic church. So the Church is forced to provide birth control and abortion inducing drugs.



Again. Still not a church.

And since they take money from the government and other sources they can't claim they have to spend "their" money on anything the don't want to. The money comes from far more sources then just the church.

Many of them are also like the St Marys hospital. Affiliated with the church and Deancare.

So not a church.

We carve out a very unique place in our society for churches. The government doesn't tell 'em what do. They don't pay taxes. And they don't get to tell the government what to do. That's why churches are exempt. And it's why they need to stfu when it comes to what everyone else does. Or give up that tax exempt status.

A church is a special sort of institution. It's not just anything churches are affiliated with.

Heck I'm all for changing that special place we've set aside for churches. If they want to be involved in politics the first thing to go is tax exempt status. Second is freedom from government involvement.

Churches aren't being told what to do. Organizations that have church affiliations are. Because they're not churches. Because they're also affiliated with the government and private insurers to start with.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:22 pm

Henry Vilas wrote: I see you know little of history.

Fortunately for me, you are available to explain. How did the Catholic Church flex their muscles to survive the child abuse scandal in the United States? How did that muscle allow them to retain membership?
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby dave esmond » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:25 pm

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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:27 pm

Catholics make up 30% of Congress and two-thirds of the Justices on the Supreme Court. But I'm sure none of them are biased by their religious beliefs.

And while it's great that Catholics decided to let themselves off the hook, my question is why the government didn't fully commit to prosecuting this vast criminal conspiracy? (Answer: See above in combination with the political donations of Church-affiliated groups.)

Finally, you don't need "muscle" to keep people religious.
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