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The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:32 pm

dave esmond wrote: Again. Still not a church.

And since they take money from the government and other sources they can't claim they have to spend "their" money on anything the don't want to. The money comes from far more sources then just the church.

OK. I probably agree with you in many ways. I don't believe in tax exemptions for religous organizations under any circumstances.

Listen to the angry sermon from the Priest I posted earlier. He makes the point that the Church was oppressed at times in its past history precisely by being prevented from carrying-out their wider mission. They claim they can't stop their work at the church exit.

It really doesn't matter that much in my mind whether it is a Church per se or a Church-operated business. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.

To me, the issue is the same in either case. The government should accomodate religous sensibilities to the greatest extent possible, without causing harm to other important values. IT's not a black and white issue, but it seems most people want to take sides and paint the other side as villianous, then make it an all-or-nothing proposition.
To me, the compromise offered by Obama was about right.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:42 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote: my question is why the government didn't fully commit to prosecuting this vast criminal conspiracy? (Answer: See above in combination with the political donations of Church-affiliated groups.)


Probably the government should have done many more prosecutions.

You don't have to go to political curruption to see how the gov would be reluctant to get involved.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby dave esmond » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:46 pm

Huckleby wrote:The government should accomodate religous sensibilities to the greatest extent possible, without causing harm to other important values.


It's their choice to be involved in organizations outside the church. And when they do they have to follow the same rules as everyone else. Don't want to follow the same rules as other hospitals, schools and universities? Don't operate one.

It is that simple.

They get a big ol' pass as a church. They don't have to let women or gays into positions of power. They get a set of special rules that no one else gets. They already get more accommodations then any other organization.

If they want to run a hospital, school or university then yes they have to pay minimum wage, follow workplace rules and provide the same insurance as everyone else. Don't like it? And I understand why they don't, then don't get involved with non-church organizations.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Tue Mar 13, 2012 2:57 pm

Huckleby wrote:You don't have to go to political curruption to see how the gov would be reluctant to get involved.
I didn't say corruption, I said influence. Of course I see why the gov was reluctant to get involved: because The Catholic Church is a very influential organization.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:16 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:The Catholic Church is a very influential organization.

And under our constitution, they have protection from government interference.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:18 pm

So you're conceding now that they are influential, despite pages and pages of denying that fact?
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:21 pm

dave esmond wrote:It's their choice to be involved in organizations outside the church. And when they do they have to follow the same rules as everyone else. Don't want to follow the same rules as other hospitals, schools and universities? Don't operate one.

It is that simple.

It is not simple. You are telling one side of the story.

Could the government pass a law mandating that all delis have to sell pork, having determined that there is some public health value in pork?

I think the Kosher deli's would feel persecuted. And they probably could win a court case on grounds that their constitutional rights were violated.

In interests of social tranquility, politics and religous liberty, it is wise for the government to make accomodations where possible. It's NOT a black and white issue.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:24 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:So you're conceding now that they are influential, despite pages and pages of denying that fact?

It is not a yes or no check box.

They have political influence, mostly from their church membership. They don't push government around, as we can see clearly in the OBama administration's current conflict with the church. There are limits to their power.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby dave esmond » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:36 pm

Huckleby wrote:It is not simple. You are telling one side of the story.

Could the government pass a law mandating that all delis have to sell pork, having determined that there is some public health value in pork?


Sure. I'm pretty sure that's never gonna happen tho'.

As long as the government doesn't force someone to run a business they're not forcing anyone to violate any personal belief.

When someone decides to run a business they have to follow the same rules as everyone else. Simple.

If your personal beliefs don't allow you to follow the rules don't open a business. Simple.



If the government forced churches to run hospitals then I might have a different take. But as it is running a business is a choice and we don't need special rules for groups that already have a set of special rules.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:41 pm

Huckleby wrote:There are limits to their power.

Really? You mean they don't have an all-powerful deity backing them up? Someone should tell them.

In a nutshell: The Catholic Church is a powerful and influential organization. Rich too! Also: They are a criminal conspiracy.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby dave esmond » Tue Mar 13, 2012 3:45 pm

Huckleby wrote:In interests of social tranquility, politics and religous liberty, it is wise for the government to make accomodations where possible.


That's why churches get tax exempt status and don't have to treat women and gays the same as any other organization.

That's enough. That's way, way more then anyone else gets.

Once they enter the real world they have make some accommodations to the public at large. They can stop bitching about not getting their way 100% of the time.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:02 pm

dave esmond wrote:
Could the government pass a law mandating that all delis have to sell pork, having determined that there is some public health value in pork?


Sure. I'm pretty sure that's never gonna happen tho'.

Demanding that Catholic hospitals provide abortion-inducing drugs to their employees is pushing it, not so very different from the Kosher example.

I get your side of the argument, mostly agree with it, not sure why you have no empathy for the CAtholic position.

dave esmond wrote: As long as the government doesn't force someone to run a business they're not forcing anyone to violate any personal belief.

Well, that's similar to the argument that employees shouldn't have protections for working conditions, after all they can work somewhere else if they want to.
Last edited by Huckleby on Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:03 pm

Huckleby wrote:
Prof. Wagstaff wrote:The Catholic Church is a very influential organization.

And under our constitution, they have protection from government interference.

The First Amendment works both ways. No special favors to just one religion. Otherwise mainstream Mormons would still be allowed to have more than one wife. So too Muslims living in the U.S.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby Huckleby » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:07 pm

Henry Vilas wrote: No special favors to just one religion. Otherwise mainstream Mormons would still be allowed to have more than one wife.

That's the black & white thinking at work again. It is possible to make accomodations, a.k.a. "special favors", without going so far as to legalize bigomy.

Religous freedom means accomodations for religions. Like giving orthodox jews working for government holiday time that match their religion. We don't live in a black and white world, we live in a messy world of conflict and compromise.
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Re: The Catholic Church, health care and birth control

Postby dave esmond » Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:16 pm

Huckleby wrote:I get your side of the argument, mostly agree with it, not sure why you have no empathy for the CAtholic position.


I have empathy for CHURCH activities. I don't understand why you can't see that affiliated organizations are larger then just the church and therefore we need to have empathy for everyone who's involved. Including the non Catholics.

No one is forcing the church to do anything. They've got special rules no one else gets.

They don't have to run hospitals or universities. It's their choice to do so.

When they interact with the public at large they're in the public arena, not the special one we give churches.

dave esmond wrote: As long as the government doesn't force someone to run a business they're not forcing anyone to violate any personal belief.

Well, that's similar to the argument that employees shouldn't have protections for working conditions, after all they can work somewhere else if they want to.


Not even close.

I'm arguing that everyone outside the church has to play by the same rules. No one gets to make up special rules just because they believe they should.
Last edited by dave esmond on Tue Mar 13, 2012 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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