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Dick Cheney gets a heart

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Re: Dick Cheney gets a heart

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:31 pm

Meade wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:Cheney supported his party's line, which was even more hawkish than LBJs.

Are you high? No president was more hawkish on Vietnam than LBJ.

Do you have any actual evidence of Cheney "supporting his party's line" on Vietnam? Other than what you just pull out of the thin air of your recovered memory? Thank you.

I remember "Young Americans for Freedom" types wearing Bomb Hanoi buttons in the mid-sixties. The warhawks in the GOP were Curtis LeMay fans who agreed with his "bomb them into the stone age" strategy. Cheney served in the Nixon administration, which did bomb Hanoi. And spread the war to Cambodia.

Are you low?
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Re: Dick Cheney gets a heart

Postby Meade » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:12 pm

Do you have any evidence that Dick Cheney, when he was a student at the UW, was a war hawk? If not, please just say so. Thank you.
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Re: Dick Cheney gets a heart

Postby wack wack » Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:36 am

Wait, the wicked witch got the heart? Who fucked up this story?

Rich Schultz wrote:Now let's see if the idiots who hate him have a heart.


Next up on the government dole: a rectal-cranial extraction for one of Cheney's flying monkeys.
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Re: Dick Cheney gets a heart

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:47 am

Meade wrote:Do you have any evidence that Dick Cheney, when he was a student at the UW, was a war hawk? If not, please just say so. Thank you.

He was a Republican way back then, an aide to GOP Governor Warren P. Knowles, while working on his PhD (which he never finished) to keep his draft deferment. (He eventually got five different deferments). At that time the position of the GOP was even more hawkish than LBJ's, as they thought the war in Vietnam should have been expanded to the north. And like I said, he joined Richard "Bomb Hanoi" Nixon's administration.

My claim is that he was a chicken hawk. Pro war, but avoiding military service at all costs. He certainly wasn't a member of the SDS. It was lefties who opposed the war.

Your weak attempt at right wing historical revisionism is going nowhere.
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Re: Dick Cheney gets a heart

Postby Galoot » Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:02 am

Cheney was a war hawk well before he got to UW. He claims himself that he was strongly influenced by the anti-communist foreign policy positions of his Yale professor, H. Bradford Westerfield:

Mr. Cheney repeatedly said Dr. Westerfield helped shape his hard-line approach to foreign policy. But an article in The Nation in 2004 reported that Dr. Westerfield came to regret the hard-nosed lessons Mr. Cheney said he had learned. Dr. Westerfield explained that his own politics had become much more dovish since advocating uncompromising anticommunism in classes Mr. Cheney attended, transformed in large part by America’s troubles in the Vietnam War.


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/educa ... yyPT1T4nkA

QED
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Re: Dick Cheney gets a heart

Postby bleurose » Tue Mar 27, 2012 10:59 am

One cardiac surgeon who was interviewed on NPR Monday AM (sorry, I don't remember her name) said that in general, the upper age limit to be considered for a heart transplant is 65; most heart transplants appear to happen in the 50 to 65 age range. Not sure if there was another person, but an additional comment was that the more thoracic surgery an individual has previously had, the lower they go on the transplant list as those previous surgeries tend to increase the difficulty of the transplant surgery. I think they said Cheney has had at least several thoracic surgeries. Then you consider that since he is, in this case, considerably older than the upper age limit which means that he will have more difficulty adapting, his risk of infections and rejection are up and it means that he will very likely have a markedly shortened life span compared to someone in the 50-65 group, even with his new "motor".
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Re: Dick Cheney gets a heart

Postby Meade » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:34 pm

Galoot wrote:Cheney was a war hawk well before he got to UW. He claims himself that he was strongly influenced by the anti-communist foreign policy positions of his Yale professor, H. Bradford Westerfield:

Mr. Cheney repeatedly said Dr. Westerfield helped shape his hard-line approach to foreign policy. But an article in The Nation in 2004 reported that Dr. Westerfield came to regret the hard-nosed lessons Mr. Cheney said he had learned. Dr. Westerfield explained that his own politics had become much more dovish since advocating uncompromising anticommunism in classes Mr. Cheney attended, transformed in large part by America’s troubles in the Vietnam War.


http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/educa ... yyPT1T4nkA

QED

QED only because you are looking to have your bias confirmed. But nothing in what you cite is evidence of Cheney being a "chicken-hawk". "Hard-line" and "hard-nosed" do not equal "war hawk". Cheney had a professor at Yale who came to regret teaching a political science course that may have influenced his students to take hard-line hard-nosed positions against the spread of Soviet communism. Why do you suppose he later forgave himself for his possibly supposedly bad influences on those students (who, by the way, also included John Kerry (war hero), Joseph Lieberman, Howard Dean, George W. Bush, and Dick Cheney)?

JFK was the first president to be a war hawk on Vietnam. He commanded the assassination of Ngo Dinh Diem and established the essential neoconservative doctrine: "pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and success of liberty." Kennedy was thus determined to "draw a line in the sand" and prevent a communist victory in Vietnam. He told James Reston of The New York Times immediately after his Vienna meeting with Khrushchev, "Now we have a problem making our power credible and Vietnam looks like the place." Kennedy raised the number of American military personnel in South Vietnam to 16,000, more than 17 times the number of Eisenhower's advisors.

Read for yourself the rest of that Wikipedia entry on Ground War and Escalation. Compare LBJ's decisions to Nixon's and then try again to argue that the GOP was more hawkish than the Democrats and, in particular, LBJ. Then, also, explain to us why LBJ was not the most evil president in US history. Thank you.
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Re: Dick Cheney gets a heart

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:41 pm

No doubt that both JFK and LBJ got us deeply involved in the unwinnable war in Vietnam. But what does that have to do with Cheney? He was a chicken hawk because while he was deeply anti-Communist, he applied for and got five separate draft deferments to keep him from having to fight Communism himself. Spin it all you want, but you cannot deny those facts.
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Re: Dick Cheney gets a heart

Postby Meade » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:29 pm

Sorry Hen, much as you'd like to think it does, it doesn't make him a chicken hawk. The draft created an number of options for young men in 1967. Some of those options were enlistment, induction, Canada, C.O., civil disobedience, and avoidance through deferrals. Oh, and bombing Sterling Hall.

None of those options necessarily equaled cowardice. Except Canada and bombing Sterling Hall.
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Re: Dick Cheney gets a heart

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Tue Mar 27, 2012 2:39 pm

Meade, you're wrong. A chickenhawk is someone who supports a war yet avoided military service when of age. Clearly, Cheney fits that definition.

What you should be doing is pointing out to Hank that calling Cheney a chickenhawk is an ad hominem attack, and Hank is on record here at TDPF on more than one occasion expressing disdain for such arguments.
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Re: Dick Cheney gets a heart

Postby Detritus » Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:34 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:What you should be doing is pointing out to Hank that calling Cheney a chickenhawk is an ad hominem attack, and Hank is on record here at TDPF on more than one occasion expressing disdain for such arguments.

I disagree. Calling Dick Cheney a chickenhawk, or a chickenhawk and a war criminal, isn't an ad hominem argument--it's a simple statement of fact.
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Re: Dick Cheney gets a heart

Postby Meade » Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:39 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:Meade, you're wrong. A chickenhawk is someone who supports a war yet avoided military service when of age. Clearly, Cheney fits that definition.

Clearly because you have some evidence? that, in 1967, he expressed support for LBJ's bellicosity? Do you have evidence of Dick Cheney, during the years he was eligible for the draft, stating that Johnson's war strategy was supportable, that more Americans should be drafted and sent to Vietnam?

Nixon, who Cheney went to work for as chief of staff, campaigned on ending the war and ending the draft. He successfully ended the draft. His mistake of trying to cover up the crimes of subordinates - Watergate - led to his resignation and with that a shift in power in Congress to Democrat doves who cut off funding for finishing "Vietnamization" which led to blood bath and an enormous genocide in southeast Asia.

All thanks to LBJ's vanity, power hunger, and narcissism.
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Re: Dick Cheney gets a heart

Postby KidCapitol » Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:44 pm

Dick Cheney
Poster boy for NOT being an organ donor.
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Re: Dick Cheney gets a heart

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:54 pm

Ending the draft is the only reason the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq lasted so long.

And prof, calling Cheney a chickenhawk is the point of my argument, not an ad hominem in support of another argument.
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Re: Dick Cheney gets a heart

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Tue Mar 27, 2012 6:55 pm

Detritus wrote:I disagree. Calling Dick Cheney a chickenhawk, or a chickenhawk and a war criminal, isn't an ad hominem argument--it's a simple statement of fact.
I disagree. Saying Dick Cheney got draft deferments is a statement of fact. But the very nature of the term "chickenhawk" suggests there is an inherent hypocrisy with avoiding military service (which Cheney did) but supporting wars (which Cheney did.) Thus, it's an attempt to undermine Cheney's views and policies by reminding us of his long-ago actions. Attacking someone for personal failings rather than their positions is the very definition of ad hominem.

Meade wrote:
Prof. Wagstaff wrote:Meade, you're wrong. A chickenhawk is someone who supports a war yet avoided military service when of age. Clearly, Cheney fits that definition.

Clearly because you have some evidence? that, in 1967, he expressed support for LBJ's bellicosity? Do you have evidence of Dick Cheney, during the years he was eligible for the draft, stating that Johnson's war strategy was supportable, that more Americans should be drafted and sent to Vietnam?

Who cares what Cheney's views on Vietnam were in 1967? Cheney avoided the draft and then later supported shipping other people off to war to further the policies of the political administrations in which he served. Not sure why you think those two events must occur simultaneously for someone to be a chickenhawk, but they don't. A chickenhawk is someone who avoids serving in the military but has no compunction about sending others off to war. So yes, Cheney clearly fits that definition.
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