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The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

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The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Remember_Me » Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:55 am

A dedicated thread for this story. Many posts on the topic were already discussed here.

I'll repost my last comments from that thread in a new post below.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Remember_Me » Thu Mar 29, 2012 2:55 am

As someone who boxed as a kid into my early 20s, most swelling and bruising isn't always noticeable right away. Especially if you've got a good cut man... or EMTs who clean you up good at the scene prior to being taken to the police station. And it's the police who determined he needed medical attention at the scene... why would they make that up? The video is basically pointless and more attempts at sensationalism. The quality and distance of the footage can't prove or disprove anything... based on what I saw.

To the Zimmerman persecutors I have to ask... why? What do you feel is Zimmerman's motive here? Again, I don't know what happened or why. So by default I have to look at it from a legal perspective. What is Zimmerman's motivation here?

The SYG law is stupid. Like a lot of laws out there.

But if someone can tell me simply what they believe Zimmerman's motive is (was), maybe I can start to try and understand why people are more irate at him and not this SYG law.

Rabble?
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:59 am

SYG is a pretty dumb law, but that doesn't make Zimmerman any less culpable for his own actions. I don't think he had a motive in the standard definition, but rather decided to act like a cop (a career I believe he wanted to pursue, and a behavior I've seen first hand when I used to work for a security company), and in the heat of the moment, he went too far.
In his defense, I'm not sure it's fair to call him racist or claim he was targeting Martin be cause he was black. This all occurred inside a gated community. Trayvon Martin could have been a white kid in a tank top and shorts on a sunny day, the fact is, he was a new face, in a place where entrance is controlled. That alone could have been enough to pique Zimmerman's curiosity.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby rabble » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:13 am

Remember_Me wrote: And it's the police who determined he needed medical attention at the scene... why would they make that up?

You're kidding, right?
Remember_Me wrote:But if someone can tell me simply what they believe Zimmerman's motive is (was), maybe I can start to try and understand why people are more irate at him and not this SYG law.

Rabble?

I'm not more irate at him than the law. I'm pretty mad at both, but then, that law now has a face on it.

It's one thing to have a law that basically gives people the right to hunt people. It's quite another to be the sort of person who takes advantage of that law.

Zimmerman's motive is quite simple; he was playing cowboy, punisher, lone ranger, avenging angel, choose your fantasy. He created a little fantasy and thought his gun made him invincible and the law made him untouchable. Damn near got away with it too.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby wack wack » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:30 am

Remember_Me wrote:And it's the police who determined he needed medical attention at the scene... why would they make that up? The video is basically pointless and more attempts at sensationalism. The quality and distance of the footage can't prove or disprove anything... based on what I saw.


Perhaps his injuries were self-inflicted, then...

Richard Kurtz, the funeral director who prepared Martin's body, was asked if there were any signs on his hands that he had punched someone.

"The only thing that I was able to see was the gunshot wound," Kurtz told The Last Word. "I could not see evidence like he had been punching somebody as the news media say he was punching ... It just did not add up to me."


http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/ ... n-shooting
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:43 am

out of curiosity, are Funeral Directors train to be able to determine that kind of thing? Not just glance at his hands, and say, "I don't see bruises", but give a real medical exam?

If not, it would be nice to know what the actual medical examiner said about Martin's condition. If Martin was in an physical fight with Zimmerman, there would definitely be signs on his body.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby wack wack » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:06 am

Francis Di Domizio wrote:out of curiosity, are Funeral Directors train to be able to determine that kind of thing? Not just glance at his hands, and say, "I don't see bruises", but give a real medical exam?

If not, it would be nice to know what the actual medical examiner said about Martin's condition. If Martin was in an physical fight with Zimmerman, there would definitely be signs on his body.


Out of curiosity, why do you ask? Are you trying to actually discredit the funeral director, or just generally unaware of his knowledge and experience?

A funeral director with a modicum of experience would certainly be able to identify all levels of trauma to the human body, and would certainly do more than "glance" at the body's hands.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Thu Mar 29, 2012 10:16 am

Not discrediting him in anyway, but if I'm a prosecutor trying to disprove a self defense claim by the defendant I'd rather go with the Medical Examiner saying that the there were no signs on Martin's body of a physical altercation prior to the shooting.

Now if a funeral director receives training that would allow them to make such a statement in court and not have their testimony called into question by the defense due to lack of training, then the statement by Richard Kurtz has some legal bearing on the case. Which I believe should answer your question.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby SombreroFallout » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:33 am

Francis Di Domizio wrote:Not discrediting him in anyway, but if I'm a prosecutor


You're not a prosecutor. So why are you trying to play one in an online forum?

Now if a funeral director receives training . . ... then the statement by Richard Kurtz has some legal bearing on the case.


Funeral directors entire job consists of finding, examining and fixing trauma to corpses. As a witness, and as one holding that job description, his testimony has legal bearing on the case: only one other person has a better claim to speak to the condition of the body.

We all know funeral directors are not coroners -- or at least, not always. You do know, though, that you are not a prosecutor? Notwithstanding the legalistic nature of your objection, we have no basis to call Richard Kurtz's statement into question.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:00 pm

Let me rephrase that so the hypothetical of me being a prosecutor doesn't confuse you so much.

Not discrediting him in anyway, but if a prosecutor is trying to disprove a self defense claim by the defendant they would probably rather go with the Medical Examiner saying that the there were no signs on Martin's body of a physical altercation prior to the shooting.


My question was actually a request for information. My understanding of the role of a funeral director was that their job was to examine a body and make it presentable for viewing at a funeral, not determine what the cause of any damage is. If they can indeed be called as expert witnesses in regards to the cause and existence of said damage then, hey, I learned something new.
If they cannot be considered expert witnesses, than the validity of Richard Kurtz's statement is irrelevant as it won't help to put Martin's killer behind bars. Unless of course your only interest is to further stir the pot in what is already a convoluted mess.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby wack wack » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:06 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:My understanding of the role of a funeral director was that their job was to examine a body and make it presentable for viewing at a funeral, not determine what the cause of any damage is. If they can indeed be called as expert witnesses in regards to the cause and existence of said damage then, hey, I learned something new.


There is no need for Kurtz to comment on the cause of damage, because he claims there was no damage. Hope that alleviates your confusion.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby DCB » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:22 pm

wack wack wrote:
Francis Di Domizio wrote:My understanding of the role of a funeral director was that their job was to examine a body and make it presentable for viewing at a funeral, not determine what the cause of any damage is. If they can indeed be called as expert witnesses in regards to the cause and existence of said damage then, hey, I learned something new.


There is no need for Kurtz to comment on the cause of damage, because he claims there was no damage. Hope that alleviates your confusion.

I'm wondering if the funeral director director is the only one who looked at the body. If the police had bothered to try to verify Zimmerman's claims of a struggle, why didn't they get a coroner to check this out? No, they made up their minds without examining any evidence.

Instead, they tested Martin's lifeless body for drugs, but not Zimmerman.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/ma ... sfeed=true
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby SombreroFallout » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:25 pm

Remember_Me wrote:As someone who boxed as a kid into my early 20s, most swelling and bruising isn't always noticeable right away.


Your rhetorical reaching sure exceeds your reach as a boxer -- but you still haven't landed a punch here. Someone gets 'decked' as claimed with a punch in the face will have redness and will look a little rubbery before the swelling and bruising shows.

I take your point. However, Zimmerman isn't disheveled at all. Which wouldn't be the case if he'd been 'decked', & then punched repeatedly by someone on top of him, and had the back of his head smashed against the pavement. Instead, he's walking steadily & under his own power, and his gait looks agile if not athletic. He's not overweight, but well-muscled and has obviously been lifting.

Especially if you've got a good cut man... or EMTs who clean you up good at the scene prior to being taken to the police station.


The blood on Zimmerman's face was Trayvon Martin's blood. So the EMTs wiped off his face, but they don't do laundry. You get punched in the nose, blood gets on your shirt, and there's none on that tape.

Your bruising comment is just an irrelevant red herring; no one said there should be bruising. Here's the thing: George Zimmerman's clothing was in perfect condition. Nothing was pulled out of place. He could've gone into any club and looked put together. No wrinkling, no tearing, no grass stains, no blood, no article of clothing was in any disarray at all. Instead his shirts looked ironed, studiously in place for being seen in clubs or restaurants -- and no way that'd be the case if he was in a fight rolling around on the ground.

That's the tell here. The neighbor who looked after the gunshot saw Zimmerman standing over Martin, with two hands on his chest holding him down. What does anyone do in George Zimmerman's place at that moment? Just what the neighbor said: you stand fully erect, raise your hands over your head (in an 'oh boy, what have I done gesture' (per witness quote)) and wipe your face -- getting Trayvon Martin's blood on your face in the process.

Zimmerman's account just doesn't hold up. He claimed he got out of the truck to check the street signs -- but there's only 3 streets in that gated community. He's been doing this for years and we're supposed to believe he doesn't know what street he's on? So, there're some lies that need owning up to. Especially since personal responsiblity is one fetish at work here.

But if someone can tell me simply what they believe Zimmerman's motive is


You asked this at least 4 times in just this one passage, and no one believes you don't know what the obvious motives are or could be. Try being less disingenous.

The guy was an off-duty unofficial neighborhood watch volunteer with a record of hassling residents who'd lived there for years -- he saw normal activity as suspicious and couldn't tell the difference between those who lived there and those who didn't. One homeowner viewed Zimmerman's attention as so disturbing /unacceptable that he vocally registered his objections at a neighborhood meeting attended by the police chief and a city council member, IIRC. Another resident, a kid, commented that everyone knew GZ'd hassle 'em for stuff they didn't do.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:26 pm

wack wack wrote:There is no need for Kurtz to comment on the cause of damage, because he claims there was no damage. Hope that alleviates your confusion.


since my confusion only relates to whether Kurtz could be called as an expert witness to definitively state for the record that there was no sign of a physical altercation on Martin's body, no, not really.


Really, I get that Kurtz saw no signs of Martin having punched anyone, and I've seen nothing that makes me doubt that. Then again, I hadn't seen any evidence that made me think Martin had attacked Zimmerman to begin with. But if the only thing his statement serves is to help convict Zimmerman in the court of public opinion, it's pretty pointless. The court of public opinion is already firmly against Zimmerman. However the court of public opinion isn't going to see that Trayvon Martin's killer faces justice.

So my question remains, would Kurtz's testimony hold any value in a court of law? And if not, was there a coroner's examination that would.

And if there was no coroner's examination, why the hell not?
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:30 pm

SombreroFallout wrote:The blood on Zimmerman's face was Trayvon Martin's blood. So the EMTs wiped off his face, but they don't do laundry. You get punched in the nose, blood gets on your shirt, and there's none on that tape.


actually the lack of blood on the shirt raises another question. If you shoot someone who is in the process of beating on you, it's going to be at point blank range. Shouldn't there be blood from the gunshot on Zimmerman?
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