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"Curveball"

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

"Curveball"

Postby kurt_w » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:49 pm

I still can't grasp how the Iraq war fiasco -- we went to war on a lie! -- hasn't led to the complete destruction of the Republican Party.

Condoleezza Rice warned about "mushroom clouds". Don Rumsfeld said that we knew exactly where the (nonexistent) WMDs were. Colin Powell stood in front of the UN Security Council and showed one piece of faked and/or misinterpreted "evidence" after another.

It was all lies.


Thousands of American soldiers gave their lives, tens of thousands were grievously injured, and trillions of dollars in direct and indirect costs were sucked from the US economy. All for a bunch of lies.

A man whose lies helped to make the case for invading Iraq [...] will come clean in his first British television interview tomorrow.

"Curveball", the Iraqi defector who fabricated claims about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, smiles as he confirms how he made the whole thing up. It was a confidence trick that changed the course of history, with Rafid Ahmed Alwan al-Janabi's lies used to justify the Iraq war. [...]

The chemical engineer claimed to have overseen the building of a mobile biological laboratory when he sought political asylum in Germany in 1999. His lies were presented as "facts and conclusions based on solid intelligence" by Colin Powell, US Secretary of State, when making the case for war at the UN Security Council in February 2003.

But Mr Janabi, speaking in a two-part series, Modern Spies, starting tomorrow on BBC2, says none of it was true. When it is put to him "we went to war in Iraq on a lie. And that lie was your lie", he simply replies: "Yes."

US officials "sexed up" Mr Janabi's drawings of mobile biological weapons labs to make them more presentable, admits Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, General Powell's former chief of staff. "I brought the White House team in to do the graphics," he says, adding how "intelligence was being worked to fit around the policy".


The Republican Party used faked "evidence" to lead the country into a disastrous and painfully costly war of aggression. How can that party continue to exist?
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Re: "Curveball"

Postby snoqueen » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:57 pm

I can't answer your question (nobody can) but even at the time I didn't think there were any weapons of mass destruction. Everything just seemed so fishy. I can't figure out how anybody fell for it.

I'll always wonder how much Powell knew, or didn't know.

The defense we're going to hear next is "you believe stuff from the BBC?"
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Re: "Curveball"

Postby kurt_w » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:04 pm

snoqueen wrote:The defense we're going to hear next is "you believe stuff from the BBC?"


Uh, last I checked, despite nearly nine years of occupation of Iraq by the US military, we were never able to find any actual WMDs.
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Re: "Curveball"

Postby Peanutbutter » Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:23 pm

If it was all a mistake then does that mean we have to give the rape rooms back to Saddam's sons?
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Re: "Curveball"

Postby pjbogart » Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:23 pm

Peanutbutter wrote:If it was all a mistake then does that mean we have to give the rape rooms back to Saddam's sons?


Ah, right on schedule. So the chain of command says "deny, morph, change subject." First you claim that the WMD's were there, they just hid them really well. When that fails you diminish the importance of the WMD's, morphing the issue into something that you care nothing about, like the torturing of Muslims. Lastly you point out that Al Gore has a big boat.

I always get a kick out of Republicans justifying the war (after the fact) on saving the poor Iraqis from an evil dictator. Yeah, the same nutjobs who claim that all Muslims are terrorists now want you to believe that we spent a trillion dollars and countless AMERICAN lives (not just the dead, but the permanently disabled too) all to save the poor people of Iraq from Saddam Hussein. Because they love Iraqis so much. Or something.
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Re: "Curveball"

Postby snoqueen » Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:43 am

If it was all about saving the Iraqis from an evil dictator, we can easily think of more evil dictators and ask why we aren't busy saving those people as well. We've been remarkably selective about that.

No, Iraq was not a goodwill mission.
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Re: "Curveball"

Postby kurt_w » Tue Apr 03, 2012 6:42 am

If we're going to be invading countries and overthrowing their governments for humanitarian reasons, then it's the president's job to make the case for humanitarian reasons.

Don't drum up hysteria about nonexistent "weapons of mass destruction".

George Bush and his associates led the country into our largest war since Vietnam on completely false pretenses. That doesn't bother you, peanutbutter? Not even a little bit?
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Re: "Curveball"

Postby jman111 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:31 am

It's neither useful nor entertaining to turn an incident like this into an excuse for bashing Republican whackjobs. How about just sympathizing with the families of the victims and then leaving it at that?
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Re: "Curveball"

Postby kurt_w » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:34 am

You're equating the former president, national security advisor, secretary of defense, and secretary of state to a mentally ill school shooter?

OK, whatever.
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Re: "Curveball"

Postby wack wack » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:35 am

kurt_w wrote:The Republican Party used faked "evidence" to lead the country into a disastrous and painfully costly war of aggression. How can that party continue to exist?


Racism, sexism and homophobia. And God.
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Re: "Curveball"

Postby jman111 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:43 am

kurt_w wrote:OK, whatever.

Nope, I'm equating those that accept the claims of others unquestioningly. I'm suggesting that acceptance of preposterous claims on faith and manufactured evidence leads to distorted views of reality and, sometimes, disastrous situations.
Was Colin Powell's presentation to the American people siginificantly different than a sermon to a congregation?
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Re: "Curveball"

Postby green union terrace chair » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:54 am

The true purpose was to establish a permanent presence in the region to counter Iran as well as hedge our positions on China.

The war in Iraq may have been sold on a lie, but it was no mistake.
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Re: "Curveball"

Postby kurt_w » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:56 am

jman111 wrote:
kurt_w wrote:OK, whatever.

Nope, I'm equating those that accept the claims of others unquestioningly. I'm suggesting that acceptance of preposterous claims on faith and manufactured evidence leads to distorted views of reality and, sometimes, disastrous situations.
Was Colin Powell's presentation to the American people siginificantly different than a sermon to a congregation?


It was a presentation to the UN security council.

Look, you're trying to mash together two cases that are so irredeemably different that it's a case of comparing apples and narwhals.
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Re: "Curveball"

Postby kurt_w » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:02 am

green union terrace chair wrote:The true purpose was to establish a permanent presence in the region to counter Iran as well as hedge our positions on China.

The war in Iraq may have been sold on a lie, but it was no mistake.


If you take that realpolitik viewpoint, then whether or not it was a "mistake" ultimately depends on whether the US position in the Middle East ends up significantly better over the long term as a result of the war. Will that be the case?

My impression is that the Iraq war probably helped Iran, not hurt it. So if the war was intended to "counter" Iran, then yes it was a mistake.
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Re: "Curveball"

Postby jman111 » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:15 am

kurt_w wrote:Look, you're trying to mash together two cases that are so irredeemably different that it's a case of comparing apples and narwhals.

Agreed. Really wasn't trying to compare the two cases, just some of the players. The quote from the student reflected the attitudes of blind followers (religious, political or otherwise). Are those who continue to believe what's being peddled by the Republican party really that different than the woman quoted after the shootings? Aren't followers of all stripes willing to remain faithful despite evidence that disproves what they're being told?

That said, I'll gladly apologize for commenting on this observation following a tragic situation and excuse myself from the room.
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