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Holy bike paths!

Please limit discussion in this area to local and state politics.

Re: Holy bike paths!

Postby DCB » Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:28 am

obrienforgovernor wrote: You're right that drivers don't pay sufficient fees to construct and maintain the road network, which is why the state has a $85 billion dollar unfunded liability on road repairs over the next twenty years. All the other things you've said are true as well, but those fees are all spoken for.

WFT does that mean?
obrienforgovernor wrote:If you are going to build and maintain a secure bike network, bike riders are going to have to pay for it, or be considered free loaders. If we do pay for it, we can demand a lot more for our money, and have the political support to get it done.

I think what you're saying is: Sure, motorists are freeloaders too, to the tune of $85 billon. But lets ignore that and make sure we squeeze some cash out of bikers.
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Re: Holy bike paths!

Postby Matt Logan » Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:15 am

This whining from conservatives about bicyclists isn't about anything you can discuss in terms of benefits to society; this is their social agenda. You will marry someone of the opposite sex, you will not be allowed to use contraception, you will own a firearm, and you will drive an automobile.

Vicki McKenna and Mitch Henck, early in 2011 basically said that if you are an adult, you should be forced to own an automobile and drive a car - unless you are too poor to afford one, then (and only then) you can ride the bus. All the other arguments they make are just rationalizations for their social agenda.
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Re: Holy bike paths!

Postby Meade » Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:56 am

Matt Logan wrote:This whining from conservatives about bicyclists [...]

And yet the "whining about bicyclists" on this very thread comes from forons who would hardly identify themselves as conservative.

Matt Logan wrote:Vicki McKenna and Mitch Henck, early in 2011 basically (weasel word) said[...]

Much of the blame for motorist hostility toward bicyclists can be laid at the arrogant feet of Critical Mass participants and other bicyclists who believe traffic rules and laws do not apply to them.
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Re: Holy bike paths!

Postby obrienforgovernor » Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:59 am

I think what you're saying is: Sure, motorists are freeloaders too, to the tune of $85 billon. But lets ignore that and make sure we squeeze some cash out of bikers.[/quote]

I am against subsidizing transportation, period. If the biking community wants to maintain the current system, that's fine with me, with one exception: no state subsidies. I intend to cut road repair and new highway funding, to a level that can be sustained by the gas tax. Those cuts will be draconian. I will offer a plan to substitute county sales taxing authority for mass transit to take the place of state subsidies. That way, counties with a strong interest in mass transit can maintain their own system at needed funding levels, independent of the governor and legislature, and counties that don't want or need that authority, are spared. If bike riders are willing to pay for their own network, we can even use that money to incorporate plans for bike transport into road building and repair projects. If we don't, the bike trails are going to look like I-94 in a few years.
Last edited by obrienforgovernor on Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Holy bike paths!

Postby Twinner » Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:16 pm

Madsci wrote:
Twinner wrote:
Madsci wrote:The curves and hills are what make biking in rural areas so dangerous in my opinion. I have had to slam on my breaks to avoid flattening a clueless bicyclist on more than one occasion. They are kinda like deer in that way.

I'm one of those cyclists riding 3' to the left of the fog line


Okay...Twinner, sorry I snapped your spandex but... dude you have really have a problem. I am a very safe defensive driver, must be from riding a bike to commute to work for 30 years. So I guess I should buy a can of orange spray paint. Just in case I flatten you with my car, you can get a big orange X, just like the road kill deer.


30 years? Congratulations. I started dealing with motorists on rides in 1978 so we've probably ridden together on the road.

First of all I rarely ride the state trails or MUT's. I average 250 miles a week on the road. Nearly all of the 9,000 miles I rode last year was on county roads or on surface streets in Madison to get to the the county roads. Most of the roads I'm riding have at most 10" of pavement to the right of the fog line. There's no bike lane on these roads. So the 3' I'm occupying (20" is me) is the footprint of the bike allowing for shit on the pavement. Glass, rocks, potholes,and other various debris gets plowed to the edge of the road so I'm taking 3' for me. Rarely do I suddenly swerve to the centerline. If I do need to go around something in the road I check to see if there's a car behind me and I do one of two things: I gesture that I'm changing my position on the road or I soft-pedal until the car goes by and I go around the obstacle. The second option is what I do because I know how it's perceived by the driver if their progress is delayed.

So when I said "think when you're behind the wheel" I meant it. If you're not capable of avoiding an object 3' to the left of the fog line you don't need to be behind the wheel.

You talk about road kill, do you run over the dead raccoons and deer when you drive because you couldn't react in time? Do you drive so fast into blind corners or over blind crests that you don't allow yourself time to react? Never mind the cyclists, what about walkers who live on the property adjacent to the road? What about multi-ton farm implements? Are you as hostile to farmers on their tractors while they're at work?

Someone suggested I get over myself. I'm the one out there without an airbag, seatbelt and a ton of car protecting me. If you as a motorist can't get it in your head that being behind the wheel isn't an entitlement and that you have to share the road... then you need to get over yourself. Driving a car isn't about you.

As for my "standing my ground" comment. I know two Madison lawyers who, before they were members of the Bar, were part of a group that dragged a driver out of his truck and beat the hell out of him after he drove a pack of riders off the road. I know of many other encounters and even had a guy get out of his Caddy to take a swing at me after he passed me. I may have bloodied my knuckles but the police let me go on the spot and took him to the hospital. You may think we look frail and weak on a bike but when I get off the bike I'm 6', 175lbs. While I don't feel the need to carry concealed, guess what, other cyclists do.
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Re: Holy bike paths!

Postby Matt Logan » Sat Apr 07, 2012 1:12 pm

Meade wrote:Much of the blame for motorist hostility toward bicyclists can be laid at the arrogant feet of Critical Mass participants and other bicyclists who believe traffic rules and laws do not apply to them.


It seems to me that the party that chooses to see every bicyclist as the extension of the least respectful subset of bicyclists is the party to blame for their hostility toward bicyclists. Taking out hostilities on all bicyclists for the behavior of a few is like blaming all motorists for the actions of the 11-time-OWI violators that regularly appear in the news.

And what makes you think those bicyclists who you think "believe traffic rules and laws do not apply to them" are doing anything more destructive than the motorists who choose to consistently exceed posted speed limits?
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Re: Holy bike paths!

Postby Madsci » Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:28 pm

Twinner wrote:Lots of wild assumptions about me and ...I'm 6', 175lbs.

I rarely drive over the speed limit, especially on the windy, hilly roads. My SUV gets better gas mileage if take my time. I do not drink and drive. The only animal that I have ever hit was a raccoon which darted under my wheels at night. I used to be a bike commuter but now I am a farmer. I am under 5' 5" and at last weigh in was 128lbs. And last but not least, if you think I would ever get out of my vehicle to confront someone, you is bat shit crazy

Be careful out there, I see how other people drive (includes motor vehicles and bicycles).
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Re: Holy bike paths!

Postby snoqueen » Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:09 pm

While I don't feel the need to carry concealed, guess what, other cyclists do.


It's not going to be very concealed under those stretchy nylon outfits.

This world has gone crazy. Bicycling is generally thought to be a peaceful, quiet, self-propelled fitness kind of thing, and now bikers are going around all ready to kill (I mean that literally: kill as in death) another person if they get in a face to face dispute? Do these people seriously realize what they're planning to do? I know drivers can be hostile and act like spoiled babies, but is the use of lethal force proportionate to perceived cause? What's next, boaters on Lake Mendota killing one another when someone bumps their expensive boat in line at the Yahara locks?

Nothing would surprise me any more. It all seems inevitable.
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Re: Holy bike paths!

Postby Meade » Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:09 am

Matt Logan wrote:It seems to me that the party that chooses to see every bicyclist as the extension of the least respectful subset of bicyclists is the party to blame for their hostility toward bicyclists. Taking out hostilities on all bicyclists for the behavior of a few is like blaming all motorists for the actions of the 11-time-OWI violators that regularly appear in the news.

I agree. What I said was - much of the blame... can be laid at the arrogant feet of Critical Mass participants. Motorists who disobey the law are just as blameworthy as bicyclists who disobey the law.

Matt Logan wrote:And what makes you think those bicyclists who you think "believe traffic rules and laws do not apply to them" are doing anything more destructive than the motorists who choose to consistently exceed posted speed limits?

I don't. They're not. They're equally as destructive as speed limit exceeding motorists are.
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Re: Holy bike paths!

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:38 am

Meade wrote:What I said was - much of the blame... can be laid at the arrogant feet of Critical Mass participants.

How many motorists even know about Critical Mass, much less have been delayed by one of their infrequent protests?

Meade wrote:They're equally as destructive as speed limit exceeding motorists are.

Ever take a course in physics? F=m x a
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Re: Holy bike paths!

Postby Meade » Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:27 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:F=m x a

Sure. Newton stated it thusly: Failure = the so-called "critical mass" concept multiplied by the number of arrogant entitled ass clowns who deliberately tie up rush hour traffic in order to make their self-righteous point that they believe they are morally superior to those who don't ride bikes.

Here's another physics lesson for you, Henry: Every idiot bike rider persists in his state of moving uniformly straight forward (or even in a zig-zag fashion), except insofar as he is compelled to touch his brakes at stops signs and red lights if he believes a police officer may be observing him and might actually stop him and cite him for being unimpressed by traffic laws.
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Re: Holy bike paths!

Postby jonnygothispen » Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:29 pm

I've never started any hostility towards any motorist or bicyclist ever, although I've often cursed under my breath or cursed back if they started it. As both a cyclist and a driver, most frequently a driver, the most violent people I've encountered are cyclists, and it's only happened in Madison. I have no idea why. It did affect my thinking towards other cyclists so much that I had to literally sit down and reprogram myself to stop it. Life's too short.
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Re: Holy bike paths!

Postby Ducatista » Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:45 pm

Twinner wrote:You may think we look frail and weak on a bike but when I get off the bike I'm 6', 175lbs. While I don't feel the need to carry concealed, guess what, other cyclists do.

1) I know Twinner, and he speaks the truth about his stature. 2) Yeah, I know cyclists who carry. I may live with one, in fact.

However douchey some cyclists may be, the US car-centric attitude is a load of shit and it's not doing us any good. And I say that as someone who now commutes every day by car (though I carpool, so that pretty much makes me Driver Lite).
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Re: Holy bike paths!

Postby Igor » Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:37 pm

Ducatista wrote:However douchey some cyclists may be, the US car-centric attitude is a load of shit and it's not doing us any good.


The problem is, when people have exercised rights, whether or not they are constitutionally-granted rights, they are unlikely to give up those rights. It is pretty obvious that the concept of "free love" has cost many people their health or lives, and has harmed our society as a whole. Yet there are still many people that will bang anyone with a pulse.

The freedom of movement that individual motorized transport provides is also not something that people are likely to give up. I think cars and other motorized vehicles could be made much more efficient. I think you could get people to drive extremely compact vehicles if they know that they are not going to be on the same streets as semis. Trains will undoubtedly play a bigger role in transportation in the future, although that will undoubtedly put them in conflict with users of the trails located on old rail beds. Bus travel will continue to be practical mostly in larger cities that have streets set up in some sort of grid system. And of course, alternatively-powered vehicles will continue to grow in popularity. But it is going to be tough to get people outside of large cities to give up the freedom of movement that cars (or similar vehicles) provide.
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Re: Holy bike paths!

Postby Mad Howler » Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:06 am

Igor wrote:
The problem is, when people have exercised rights, whether or not they are constitutionally-granted rights, they are unlikely to give up those rights. It is pretty obvious that the concept of "free love" has cost many people their health or lives, and has harmed our society as a whole. Yet there are still many people that will bang anyone with a pulse.

The freedom of movement that individual motorized transport provides is also not something that people are likely to give up. I think cars and other motorized vehicles could be made much more efficient. I think you could get people to drive extremely compact vehicles if they know that they are not going to be on the same streets as semis. Trains will undoubtedly play a bigger role in transportation in the future, although that will undoubtedly put them in conflict with users of the trails located on old rail beds. Bus travel will continue to be practical mostly in larger cities that have streets set up in some sort of grid system. And of course, alternatively-powered vehicles will continue to grow in popularity. But it is going to be tough to get people outside of large cities to give up the freedom of movement that cars (or similar vehicles) provide.


Agreed, people are very funny animals. Yet we are very creative as well, especially under pressure. Why is it so easy to pretend that this pressure is not gathering?
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