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The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby rabble » Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:45 pm

Dangerousman wrote:
rabble wrote:Oh, that's just priceless.

"MY rush to judgement is much more logical than yours because I have declared all the facts to be in!"


Hey, I used your example. If a concealed gun carrier used a gun to prevent a crime what facts are unclear?

The ones that aren't in yet.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:50 pm

Remember_Me wrote:
Stebben84 wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:there are still many unknown facts...


One fact we know is that Zimmerman shot and killed an unarmed man. Welcome to the wild west.


Correction, he killed an unarmed boy.

Grown as he was in appearance, he was still a child.


Which means what? That he couldn't possibly be a threat to anyone?

Image
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:54 pm

rabble wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:
rabble wrote:Oh, that's just priceless.

"MY rush to judgement is much more logical than yours because I have declared all the facts to be in!"


Hey, I used your example. If a concealed gun carrier used a gun to prevent a crime what facts are unclear?

The ones that aren't in yet.


Okay let's take a real case. What important facts aren't in yet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_hSNy74iO4
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby rabble » Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:45 pm

Dangerousman wrote:Okay let's take a real case. What important facts aren't in yet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_hSNy74iO4

What does it prove?
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Remember_Me » Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:47 pm

Dangerousman wrote:Which means what? That he couldn't possibly be a threat to anyone?

Image


Meaning that he was a boy. Unarmed.

Your pic is cute and all, but arm a man the same way and pit the two against each other and my money is on the man.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Stebben84 » Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:42 am

Dangerousman wrote:Quiz--

Killing an "unarmed" person is:

a) always legally justified
b) sometimes legally justified
c) never legally justified


How quaint and simplistic. How about I modify the quiz to reflect my comment:

Shooting an unarmed person is:

a) always legally justified.
b) justified if you are getting beat up
c) sometimes legally justified
d) justified if you are about to be killed
e) justified if you "think" someone might hurt you
f) never legally justified
g) etc...

Get my point there D-man. If you think it is as simple as your quiz then you're the type of concealed carry person that scares me. Just so you know, I really didn't care much about the concealed carry law. I'm not a gun person myself and I think their proliferation in society is frightening, but I knew these laws were inevitable. The problem I have is with laws like the castle doctrine and this one in Florida. THAT is what is turning us into a vigilante society. Neighborhood watch programs are great, but when those individuals start carrying guns around and try to take the law into their own hands, then we have a problem. The cops told Zimmerman to back off and he didn't. That's all he needed to do and this whole mess would be behind us. Instead, HE created an altercation, got into a fight, and decided that he needed to kill someone because he may have been getting beat up.

In the end, we'll have to let the courts decide and I'm glad. Unfortunately because of the media whores out there this case has already been decided by certain groups and individuals. The outcome will seem unfair or fueled by activism from whomever disagrees with the ruling.

D-Man, I assume you would accept whatever verdict is handed down. I am willing to.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:48 am

rabble wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:Okay let's take a real case. What important facts aren't in yet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_hSNy74iO4

What does it prove?


Answer my question first. What, if anything, is missing in this case in order to draw conclusions?
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:50 am

Remember_Me wrote:Your pic is cute and all, but arm a man the same way and pit the two against each other and my money is on the man.


Cute? You think this picture is cute? Your political correctness is slipping. I think the picture is sad.

Maybe you like this better?

http://www.nbc15.com/home/headlines/Mur ... 36545.html

Now quit trying to evade the issue and explain to us why a "child" cannot be a threat.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby rabble » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:56 am

Dangerousman wrote:
rabble wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:Okay let's take a real case. What important facts aren't in yet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_hSNy74iO4

What does it prove?


Answer my question first. What, if anything, is missing in this case in order to draw conclusions?

That case is only some of the facts. I don't know what facts might not be in yet.

Your turn. What does that case prove?
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:00 am

Stebben84 wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:Quiz--

Killing an "unarmed" person is:

a) always legally justified
b) sometimes legally justified
c) never legally justified


How quaint and simplistic. How about I modify the quiz to reflect my comment:

Shooting an unarmed person is:

a) always legally justified.
b) justified if you are getting beat up
c) sometimes legally justified
d) justified if you are about to be killed
e) justified if you "think" someone might hurt you
f) never legally justified
g) etc...

Get my point there D-man. If you think it is as simple as your quiz then you're the type of concealed carry person that scares me. Just so you know, I really didn't care much about the concealed carry law. I'm not a gun person myself and I think their proliferation in society is frightening, but I knew these laws were inevitable. The problem I have is with laws like the castle doctrine and this one in Florida. THAT is what is turning us into a vigilante society. Neighborhood watch programs are great, but when those individuals start carrying guns around and try to take the law into their own hands, then we have a problem. The cops told Zimmerman to back off and he didn't. That's all he needed to do and this whole mess would be behind us. Instead, HE created an altercation, got into a fight, and decided that he needed to kill someone because he may have been getting beat up.

In the end, we'll have to let the courts decide and I'm glad. Unfortunately because of the media whores out there this case has already been decided by certain groups and individuals. The outcome will seem unfair or fueled by activism from whomever disagrees with the ruling.

D-Man, I assume you would accept whatever verdict is handed down. I am willing to.


You added nothing new, just possible concrete examples of "B" -- which is the correct answer -- and the answer you're carefully trying to avoid admitting.

I didn't realize that you were a witness to the Trayvon Martin shooting. Please tell us everything you saw and heard that night.

I don't remember hearing anything about a "cop" telling Zimmerman to "back off." The way I heard it, a dispatcher told him he didn't need to follow Martin. So if you picked up a broom and started sweeping my driveway and I said "you don't need to do that" you'd tell everyone that I ordered you to "back off?" If you're a witness to the shooting, you're one shitty witness.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby fisticuffs » Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:02 am

Why was Zimmerman allegedly getting beat up? Because he was stalking the unarmed minor through the neighborhood?
Dangerman, does Travon Martin not have the same right to stand his ground if he felt threatened? Or does standing your ground only apply if you are armed?
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:07 am

rabble wrote:
Your turn. What does that case prove?

You're not getting off that easily. You said "I find it odd that this issue is an example of rushing to judge, but any news of a concealed carry gun used to prevent a crime is proof positive that we need more concealed weapons out there." You're suggesting that concluding that concealed carry is a good thing when it is used to stop a crime is rushing to judgement. Yet, you have enough "facts" to draw conclusions about the Zimmerman/Martin case?

One case rarely "proves" anything. But it might strongly suggest something. I think the Aldi shooting in Milwaukee supports the idea that concealed carry is a good thing. Unless you don't think stopping an armed robbery is a good thing, you might want to agree with me.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:18 am

fisticuffs wrote:Why was Zimmerman allegedly getting beat up? Because he was stalking the unarmed minor through the neighborhood?
Dangerman, does Travon Martin not have the same right to stand his ground if he felt threatened? Or does standing your ground only apply if you are armed?


It has nothing to do with whether a person is armed. Why was he getting beat up? I don't know, I wasn't there, neither were you. But I do know that the person who turns an altercation into a physical fight is probably going to be viewed as the aggressor in the eyes of the law.

I'm not convinced "stand your ground" has any relevance to this case. Stand your ground means the court doesn't have to weigh one's ability to retreat from a threat. In a sudden physical altercation, the ability to retreat is probably rendered moot.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby fisticuffs » Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:25 am

I'm not convinced "stand your ground" has any relevance to this case.


But it does. It's the reason Zimmerman wasn't charged on the night o0f the shooting. It's the reason we're having this debate in the first place. Without the NRA-ALEC sponsored Kill at Will bills Zimmerman would have been arrested right away and had is day in court like any other self-defense case. Because of these laws something like 80 people in Florida have killed without arrest. I'm not saying they should all have been convicted but it's certainly worth going through the legal process when a life is ended.

Self defense doesn't apply when your actions create the violence. By stalking Martin against police recommendations Zimmerman gave up self defense. He was the aggressor not the unarmed child no matter who through the first punch.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby wack wack » Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:32 am

Dangerousman wrote:
fisticuffs wrote:Why was Zimmerman allegedly getting beat up? Because he was stalking the unarmed minor through the neighborhood?
Dangerman, does Travon Martin not have the same right to stand his ground if he felt threatened? Or does standing your ground only apply if you are armed?


It has nothing to do with whether a person is armed. Why was he getting beat up? I don't know, I wasn't there, neither were you. But I do know that the person who turns an altercation into a physical fight is probably going to be viewed as the aggressor in the eyes of the law.

I'm not convinced "stand your ground" has any relevance to this case. Stand your ground means the court doesn't have to weigh one's ability to retreat from a threat. In a sudden physical altercation, the ability to retreat is probably rendered moot.


You're right, stand your ground is irrelevant to this case. You can't possibly stand your ground if you're moving forward, as Zimmerman did toward Martin.

Your "we weren't there" protestations are weak. There are universally accepted FACTS to this case: 1) Zimmerman reported he was following Martin; 2) Zimmerman was advised by the dispatcher to not follow Martin; 3) Zimmerman continued to follow Martin.

The contention that a pursuer has a right to a self-defense claim is completely beyond reason.
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