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Soglin stands up to poverty pimp Konkel!

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Re: Soglin stands up to poverty pimp Konkel!

Postby Marco Polo » Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:58 pm

jjoyce wrote:
5. For those of you waiting for the moment when the malcontent left in this town lost their love for Soglin, version 3.0, you're looking at it.


Ahem, while I am sure this Occupy business has changed some of her opinion the blog post directly preceding the Occupy conference blog post spoke rather glowingly of Soglin:

http://www.forwardlookout.com/2012/04/s ... card/14807
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Re: Soglin stands up to poverty pimp Konkel!

Postby bdog » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:37 am

gargantua wrote:Soglin hasn't been perfect, but he has validated my decision to vote for him. It was based on my belief that he puts the interest of the city first, and is willing to piss off various interest groups in furtherance of that interest. No sugar coating or triangulating. I find it refreshing.

Ditto. The man is practical.

Soglin responded later in the meeting by addressing poverty beyond the Occupy camp. He pointed to the rising number of students in Madison schools living below the poverty line.

"The reality is that we are a magnet for people in need. … That’s why we can’t get ahead of the curve," he said.

Read more: http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/ ... z1sO2vniDa
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Re: Soglin stands up to poverty pimp Konkel!

Postby Detritus » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:15 pm

bdog wrote:
Soglin responded later in the meeting by addressing poverty beyond the Occupy camp. He pointed to the rising number of students in Madison schools living below the poverty line.

"The reality is that we are a magnet for people in need. … That’s why we can’t get ahead of the curve," he said.

Yeah, it's crying shame that poor people move here hoping to get a better life--almost like they think they're real people. And it verges on the criminal that they choose not to buy a decent house in Fox Pointe Estates, insisting on camping out with a sequence of relatives in bad parts of town or living in their cars. And what kind of parent lets their kid join a gang when they could be taking ballet lessons or playing little league baseball?

But we real citizens of Madison refuse to knuckle under to their unreasonable demands that we decrease our support for performances of "Cats" and the annual replacement of the fountains and bus stops on State Street just so their foul habits of eating and staying warm can be indulged at the taxpayers' expense. No! Instead we will lean back in our office chairs, take a decisive sip from our nonfat macchiato and fiercely criticize a blogger for transcribing the recording of a meeting without properly journalizing it. That'll show those deadbeats and their mindless enablers we mean business!
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Re: Soglin stands up to poverty pimp Konkel!

Postby Bert Ernie » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:16 pm

Detritus wrote: Yeah, it's crying shame that poor people move here hoping to get a better life--almost like they think they're real people. And it verges on the criminal that they choose not to buy a decent house in Fox Pointe Estates, insisting on camping out with a sequence of relatives in bad parts of town or living in their cars. And what kind of parent lets their kid join a gang when they could be taking ballet lessons or playing little league baseball?

But we real citizens of Madison refuse to knuckle under to their unreasonable demands that we decrease our support for performances of "Cats" and the annual replacement of the fountains and bus stops on State Street just so their foul habits of eating and staying warm can be indulged at the taxpayers' expense. No! Instead we will lean back in our office chairs, take a decisive sip from our nonfat macchiato and fiercely criticize a blogger for transcribing the recording of a meeting without properly journalizing it. That'll show those deadbeats and their mindless enablers we mean business!


Gets my vote for "brilliant post of the year" thus far in 2012.
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Re: Soglin stands up to poverty pimp Konkel!

Postby bdog » Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:49 pm

oh cry me a fucking river.

Where does it end Det?
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Re: Soglin stands up to poverty pimp Konkel!

Postby Detritus » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:11 pm

bdog wrote:oh cry me a fucking river.

Where does it end Det?

It ends when the sun, momentarily ballooning past the orbit of Saturn, reduces the Earth to a smoldering ball of charred rock, or we figure out how to care of each other. Whichever comes first.

Oh, and while you wait, better hope that either compassion wins over expediency or that you don't find yourself in need of other people's help in the future.
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Re: Soglin stands up to poverty pimp Konkel!

Postby Broadsheet » Wed Apr 18, 2012 5:26 pm

Just a little more time? They will never leave on their own accord. Poverty is desperate. Soglin realizes this has changed from a political demonstration to a favela in the making on the main avenue to the Capitol. Other services must be brought to bear to assist the homeless there, but this camp cannot be allowed to establish itself as a permanent fixture, which is what will happen if the city keeps granting extensions. It is very sad but Soglin is doing the right thing, again learning that no good deed (allowing them to stay until now) goes unpunished.
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Re: Soglin stands up to poverty pimp Konkel!

Postby Bert Ernie » Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:56 pm

bdog wrote:oh cry me a fucking river.

Where does it end Det?


Likely NOT amongst the nominees for "brilliant post of the year."
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Re: Soglin stands up to poverty pimp Konkel!

Postby bdog » Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:22 pm

via Althouse:

Go to 2:58:22 and hear Alderman Mark Clear say "Capitalism pays for socialism." Context:

I've been all over the map emotionally myself on this issue.... I really appreciate and value what Occupy Madison has done for this city... I'm proud that we as a community unlike many other communities in this country have been able to sustain it.... I was ready to say, early tonight, you know, April 30th/June 30th, it's not that big a deal, so let's buy us some time.... After hearing the kind of legal and logistical issues that we're faced with... I've come to the conclusion that that's not a viable option....

The way to deal with poverty in the city, he says, is through development. We need to build our tax base:

Capitalism pays for socialism. That's absolutely true. The way we will be able to help the people we want to help in our community is by having the resources to be able to do it. And the only way we can do that... is by growing our real estate base.


This city is starting to smarten up.
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Re: Soglin stands up to poverty pimp Konkel!

Postby Igor » Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:44 pm

Detritus wrote:
bdog wrote:oh cry me a fucking river.

Where does it end Det?

It ends when the sun, momentarily ballooning past the orbit of Saturn, reduces the Earth to a smoldering ball of charred rock, or we figure out how to care of each other.


But you know that the City Council cannot take care of all the poor people in the world, right? Seriously?

I am in the middle politically, and certainly a right-winger compared to the skewed population on this forum. I would be willing to have my taxes increased to allow the city provide food, shelter, clothing, assistance in finding work, and day care assistance to anyone that is in town by midnight tonight. The only conditions would be:

- People addicted to substances would have to agree to begin and continue treatment.
- People that arrive in town after that time will have to rely on state or federal funding.

You cannot solve worldwide problems at the federal level, nor federal problems at the state level, etc. I can give everyone living on Theresa Terrace a job as a Java programmer, and it won't help the crime in that neighborhood. Why? Because the first thing they are going to do when they get a paycheck is MOVE TO SOMEWHERE NICER THAN THERESA TERRACE. Landlords will rent to new people, and the problems will return.
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Re: Soglin stands up to poverty pimp Konkel!

Postby Detritus » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:14 am

Igor wrote:But you know that the City Council cannot take care of all the poor people in the world, right? Seriously?

I am in the middle politically, and certainly a right-winger compared to the skewed population on this forum. I would be willing to have my taxes increased to allow the city provide food, shelter, clothing, assistance in finding work, and day care assistance to anyone that is in town by midnight tonight. The only conditions would be:

- People addicted to substances would have to agree to begin and continue treatment.
- People that arrive in town after that time will have to rely on state or federal funding.

You cannot solve worldwide problems at the federal level, nor federal problems at the state level, etc. I can give everyone living on Theresa Terrace a job as a Java programmer, and it won't help the crime in that neighborhood. Why? Because the first thing they are going to do when they get a paycheck is MOVE TO SOMEWHERE NICER THAN THERESA TERRACE. Landlords will rent to new people, and the problems will return.

First, we don't have to take care of all the poor people in the world--just the ones who live here. Second, more poor people are perfectly free to move here--you cannot keep them out just because you're afraid that they might use services the city has to offer. They have as much right to live here as you do.

The long-term solution, as Soglin correctly pointed out, is to build the economy--although there's more to it than just increasing the tax base, since the best thing is to help poor people get decent jobs that will give them a chance to get out of poverty. I trust that Soggy knows that, and just chose to emphasize the tax base issue. Anyway, the short and medium-term solutions have to involve increased support and services for the poor. The Occupied folks are reluctant to move because at least there is something there now. They have no guarantee that needed services will increase after they shut down the camp--and in fact the budget Soglin himself put forth cuts services. I don't blame them in the least. It is completely likely that, as soon as the camp is gone, the problems of the poor and the homeless will once again disappear from the city's agenda as the council debates $600,000 bathrooms for a non-existent park. From a strategic standpoint, it makes sense for them to refuse to move or dismantle without assurance that the services they need will actually materialize.

Third, your comment about substance abuse has a lot to unpack around it. There are a lot of reasons that poor people with substance abuse problems fail to complete treatment programs and return to drugs and alcohol. Having to move from place to place, not having reliable transportation to the treatment site (looking at you, Madison Metro, with you ever-shrinking routes and ever-rising fares), having unpredictable work patterns, and the depression and despair that comes from never getting all those factors together to support treatment for any length of time. Plus, as anyone who has tried to kick any kind of habit will attest, even under the best of circumstances it is a very difficult task. To succeed in treatment programs, the poor and the homeless need more understanding and more support, not more barriers coupled with more deadlines,
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Re: Soglin stands up to poverty pimp Konkel!

Postby jonnygothispen » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:22 am

Something Eric Hoffer said, as close as I can remember, "You can judge/know the future of any society by the way it treats it's cast offs." The implication is that the measure you give is indeed the measure you get eventually. In case anyone thinks Hoffer is a believer, his book, The True Believer, often focuses on comparing fanatical Christians to the fanaticism of the Nazis.

I think Konkel is a remarkably compassionate person for the views she's taken, often unpopular with those who have never experienced homelessness. There is a significant percentage of homeless who experience more emotional pain in one day than most people do in a year. So yes, it's a lot more complicated than it looks usually.
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Re: Soglin stands up to poverty pimp Konkel!

Postby Igor » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:41 am

Detritus wrote:First, we don't have to take care of all the poor people in the world--just the ones who live here. Second, more poor people are perfectly free to move here--you cannot keep them out just because you're afraid that they might use services the city has to offer. They have as much right to live here as you do.


Yes they do. But that fact does make "eliminating poverty in Madison" an unsolvable problem. It would be nice if someone involved with the issue would put together a budget of what they think should be spent on this issue by the City of Madison, as opposed to saying "more than we are spending now."
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Re: Soglin stands up to poverty pimp Konkel!

Postby Detritus » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:48 am

Igor wrote:
Detritus wrote:First, we don't have to take care of all the poor people in the world--just the ones who live here. Second, more poor people are perfectly free to move here--you cannot keep them out just because you're afraid that they might use services the city has to offer. They have as much right to live here as you do.


Yes they do. But that fact does make "eliminating poverty in Madison" an unsolvable problem. It would be nice if someone involved with the issue would put together a budget of what they think should be spent on this issue by the City of Madison, as opposed to saying "more than we are spending now."

I suggest you direct that request to Brenda Konkel. She knows the needs inside and out. Anyway, eliminating poverty anywhere is a fool's errand, which is why nobody seriously suggests doing that. the leap from "doing better by the poor" to "eliminating poverty" is one made more often by folks who don't particularly want to help the poor than by those who do. In my experience.
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Re: Soglin stands up to poverty pimp Konkel!

Postby eriedasch » Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:51 am

Konkel has always focused on housing and making it affordable for all. A very achievable goal for any community.
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