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The gun thread

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Re: The gun thread

Postby wack wack » Tue May 22, 2012 3:22 pm

Dangerousman wrote:Not so much with History-- a subtle word change here or there and voila, everything can be made to look so differently.


Thank you for not typing viola.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Tue May 22, 2012 3:56 pm

wack wack wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:Not so much with History-- a subtle word change here or there and voila, everything can be made to look so differently.


Thank you for not typing viola.


Start a thread about the Velvet Underground and I will! :D
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:05 am

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Re: The gun thread

Postby DCB » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:13 am


And he was killed by someone with a concealed-carry permit who owned 6 guns.

Maybe the gun-nuts will use this as proof that concealed carry makes you safe.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Fri Jun 01, 2012 10:43 am

... and you're drawing some conclusions? Such as...?
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Re: The gun thread

Postby DCB » Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:14 am

Florida 'stand your ground' law yields some shocking outcomes depending on how law is applied
Seven years since it was passed, Florida's "stand your ground" law is being invoked with unexpected frequency, in ways no one imagined, to free killers and violent attackers whose self-defense claims seem questionable at best.

An in-depth article that look at over 200 'stand-your-ground cases'.
It discusses a number of 'questionable' cases. And makes the point that courts are overbooked with hearings where killers are trying to get a 'get-out-of-jail-free' card.

"I see cases where I'll think, 'This person didn't really need to kill that person but the law, as it is written, justifies their action,' " Bartlett said about incidents that his office decides not to prosecute due to "stand your ground." "It may be legally within the boundaries. But at the end of the day, was it really necessary?"
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Mon Jun 04, 2012 10:55 am

"Stand your ground" is not anything about "guns." But whatever.

I'm not aware of a state that doesn't have some form of "stand your ground." Are you? I'd be interesting in knowing which state(s) don't have it. It's either codified statutorily-- which is what most people call a "stand your ground" state-- or, it's been established by court opinions. Both have the same effect.

What is the opposite of "stand your ground?" It's "a duty to flee" unlawful interference with your person. What the hell kind of world would that be where someone says, "you ain't passing by here because I said so" and if you resist at all you're the one in the wrong?
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Re: The gun thread

Postby snoqueen » Mon Jun 04, 2012 11:06 am

You either didn't read the link, or aren't addressing anything in it.

The absence of a law (say, the absence of stand your ground) doesn't automatically mean the opposite of that law (say, duty to flee) becomes the new law. It simply means previously protected behavior is no longer protected, and opens up new territory for litigation and clarification.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:49 pm

snoqueen wrote:You either didn't read the link, or aren't addressing anything in it.

The absence of a law (say, the absence of stand your ground) doesn't automatically mean the opposite of that law (say, duty to flee) becomes the new law. It simply means previously protected behavior is no longer protected, and opens up new territory for litigation and clarification.


Sno, maybe you're not reading what I've said. Or you're avoiding it. I said I can't think of a state that doesn't have "stand your ground" in one form or another. Can you? Wisconsin has been a stand your ground state since statehood. Can you provide cases where it has been grossly abused here in the 160+ years?
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Re: The gun thread

Postby fisticuffs » Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:52 pm

I said I can't think of a state that doesn't have "stand your ground" in one form or another.


So you agree the recent laws written and distributed by ALEC and the NRA are unnecessary?
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Re: The gun thread

Postby snoqueen » Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:10 pm

From the linked article:

Seven years since it was passed, Florida's "stand your ground" law is being invoked with unexpected frequency, in ways no one imagined, to free killers and violent attackers whose self-defense claims seem questionable at best.

Cases with similar facts show surprising — sometimes shocking — differences in outcomes. If you claim "stand your ground" as the reason you shot someone, what happens to you can depend less on the merits of the case than on who you are, whom you kill and where your case is decided.


I'm attempting to discuss what it'd be like if Florida's seven year old law was stricken from the books, along the lines of what the original poster was discussing in the post where he linked it.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:28 pm

fisticuffs wrote:
I said I can't think of a state that doesn't have "stand your ground" in one form or another.


So you agree the recent laws written and distributed by ALEC and the NRA are unnecessary?



It seems like the Stand Your Ground laws are the current equivalent of mandatory sentencing guidelines. Stand Your Ground existed as common law, but the new statues keep judges from making that decision now. Given that it's impossible to write a law that accounts for every situation, it seems silly, but so does mandatory sentencing.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:05 am

fisticuffs wrote:
I said I can't think of a state that doesn't have "stand your ground" in one form or another.


So you agree the recent laws written and distributed by ALEC and the NRA are unnecessary?


It depends upon the state. If the stand your ground doctrine was not established by case law in a particular state, then I'd support it being enacted legislatively.

In Wisconsin, stand your ground was affirmed by the state supreme court in Miller v. State (1909) which has never been reversed. In that case the court ruled that there is no duty to retreat, particularly in one's home. However, in 1999 an appeals court ruled in State v. Wenger that while there is no duty to retreat, a jury can consider whether there was an opportunity to retreat when it decides if the person used "a reasonable amount of force" when claiming self-defense. I think that I understand, and I don't necessarily disagree with the court's thinking in Wenger. In general one is only allowed to use the least amount of force necessary to prevent or stop an unlawful interference, i.e., to act in self-defense. It makes a certain amount of sense to say to a jury, "In the circumstances of this case we know Joe clobbered Jim when Jim got all up in Joe's face, but was there anything that prevented Joe from just turning and walking away? And if you decide that walking away was an option for Joe, do you agree that clobbering Jim was a reasonable amount of force to use?" As far as I can tell, that's still how it stands in Wisconsin, except the new "castle doctrine" law carved out 3 exceptions: in one's home, one's vehicle and one's place of business. The rationale is that one should never have to retreat from those places, because those are your places of retreat.

Provisions often enacted along with a castle doctrine law that take away one's ability to sue if one is hurt by an act of self-defense may be the least necessary part of castle doctrine law in my view. But I will plead a certain degree of ignorance about this portion of the law. I do not know how common such lawsuits are, but one hears of a horror story now and then. As we know, one or two horror stories often is sufficient to motivate new legislation.

I do not think that a person who has been injured by a person who is acting in legitimate self-defense ought to be trying to sue the self-defender in civil court. But I honestly don't know if this happens with such frequency to make a prohibition of these lawsuits necessary. But I do feel that it is rather outrageous to hear about a someone breaking into a house or holding up a business or assaulting a person, getting injured in the process, and then suing the victim for the injuries. Hey, if you don't accept the risk of getting hurt while committing a crime, choose a less hazardous activity.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Tue Jun 05, 2012 12:33 am

Francis Di Domizio wrote:It seems like the Stand Your Ground laws are the current equivalent of mandatory sentencing guidelines. Stand Your Ground existed as common law, but the new statues keep judges from making that decision now. Given that it's impossible to write a law that accounts for every situation, it seems silly, but so does mandatory sentencing.


I'm not sure what you mean. In Florida a judge is required to rule whether stand your ground even applies in each case. It's not as if all one has to do is say "I acted in self-defense and there's nothing you can do, Judge." If that was true then Zimmerman wouldn't be sitting in jail. The question, "was it likely to have been a case of self-defense or not" still remains, and judges have to decide that still before they can rule whether stand your ground even applies. Prosecutors may ask the same question before deciding whether to bring it before a judge. Prosecutors, at least the more rational ones, usually aren't going to try to prosecute a case that they believe they have no chance of winning.

As I've pointed out previously, Wisconsin has always been a "stand your ground" state, and "your ground" includes anywhere one is lawfully present. But it's not like every claim of self-defense here is given a pass by the prosecutors or courts.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:10 pm

Houston trial focusing on stand your ground law

When music at a neighbor’s evening party got too loud for his liking, Raul Rodriguez showed up to complain, carrying a gun and a video camera.

As a verbal confrontation unfolded, the retired Houston-area firefighter told a police dispatcher by phone that he feared for his life and was “standing his ground,”...

Prosecutors call Rodriguez an aggressor who could have safely left his neighbor’s driveway anytime. His defense attorneys insist Texas law still gave him the right to defend himself, even if it meant taking a life.
...
Rodriguez, 47, eventually tells the dispatcher, “Look I’m not losing to these people anymore.” A loud cackling laugh is then heard before someone appears to reach for the camera and a gun goes off. That’s when the video abruptly ends.

Danaher, 36, who taught physical education at an elementary school, was killed. The two other men were wounded.

One of the wounded men, a Houston firefighter named Ricky Johnson, told jurors Friday that he and his friends were not at fault, saying Rodriguez “started the process by coming with a gun.”
,,,
Texas’ version of a stand-your-ground law, known as the Castle Doctrine, was revised in 2007 to expand the right to use deadly force. The new version allows people to defend themselves not only in their homes but also in workplaces or vehicles. It also says a person using force cannot provoke the attacker or be involved in criminal activity at the time.

If he gets off, I guess that means your neighbor's property is part of your castle in Texas.
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