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What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

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What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby pjbogart » Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:20 am

Yesterday felt a lot like 2004 for me. I worked hard on the GOTV efforts, dedicating the entire day to the election only to feel a great sense of disappointment. In 2004 I felt proud of Wisconsin but frustrated at the rest of Americans who just "didn't get it," and today I feel proud of Dane County but frustrated at the rest of Wisconsinites who just "didn't get it." But maybe I'm the one who just doesn't get it.

1. Maybe money really is the end-all be-all of election success. The boots on the ground in Dane County were truly impressive, but radio, TV and mailers across the State simply reached more people. Barrett won Dane County by almost 40 percentage points, but even blue collar counties like Winnebago, Brown and Racine were solidly in the Walker camp.

Interactive Map: Election Results by County

2. Dog whistle politics are alive and well. Walker was able to successfully pit the rest of the State against Milwaukee.

3. People really do believe that government workers, including teachers, are overpaid.

4. When people vote their pocketbook, they vote only their pocketbook. When the government spends less, people approve, even if it means cuts to valuable investments like the education of our children.

5. High turnout is not necessarily a sign of a Democratic win.
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby jonnygothispen » Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:49 am

I'm not sure what exactly we've learned yet other than almost all of the money people were all in Walker's pocket, including the media. I'll state as a fact that WSJ was way beyond pathetic and threw the election to Walker with incessant lying in his favor.

I'd like to learn more about the unverifiable election results due to touch screen machines.

http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2012/ ... hack-issue

There's something wrong with a system that allows 2 guys in a mall control the counting for 2,000 machines in 46 counties, and the mother-in-law of one of them is the sole programmer for it.

But I think the most important thing that could happen would be a resurgence of honest media.
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Earthling » Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:51 am

jonnygothispen wrote:I'm not sure what exactly we've learned yet other than almost all of the money people were all in Walker's pocket, including the media. I'll state as a fact that WSJ was way beyond pathetic and threw the election to Walker with incessant lying in his favor.

I'd like to learn more about the unverifiable election results due to touch screen machines.

http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2012/ ... hack-issue

There's something wrong with a system that allows 2 guys in a mall control the counting for 2,000 machines in 46 counties, and the mother-in-law of one of them is the sole programmer for it.

But I think the most important thing that could happen would be a resurgence of honest media.


How are those sour grapes tasting?
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby jonnygothispen » Wed Jun 06, 2012 9:55 am

I wouldn't say "sour" because I understood before the election that most people voting for Walker did so because they thought he balanced the budget. Had the media reported the facts instead of the Walker fabricated figures, you'd see a different result.

I hope this doesn't seem like a taunt at all, but how does it feel to support the big lie, and why are you proud of it?
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Earthling » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:07 am

jonnygothispen wrote:I wouldn't say "sour" because I understood before the election that most people voting for Walker did so because they thought he balanced the budget. Had the media reported the facts instead of the Walker fabricated figures, you'd see a different result.

I hope this doesn't seem like a taunt at all, but how does it feel to support the big lie, and why are you proud of it?


I don't feel it is a big lie. I think most people were seeing both sides of what you consider to be the big "lie," and made their own decisions. This was more of a mandate to allow the guy his 4 years that he was elected to serve. Many didn't feel the recall was justified, and I think you saw that in the result.
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:09 am

pjbogart wrote:1. Maybe money really is the end-all be-all of election success. The boots on the ground in Dane County were truly impressive, but radio, TV and mailers across the State simply reached more people. Barrett won Dane County by almost 40 percentage points, but even blue collar counties like Winnebago, Brown and Racine were solidly in the Walker camp.


Has there been a final tally of the spending by each campaign yet? I know Walker vastly out raised Barrett, but how much of that was actually spent (and how much is still available for the keep Kleefisch out of the Governor's Ma... I mean legal defense fund)?

pjbogart wrote:2. Dog whistle politics are alive and well. Walker was able to successfully pit the rest of the State against Milwaukee.

3. People really do believe that government workers, including teachers, are overpaid.

4. When people vote their pocketbook, they vote only their pocketbook. When the government spends less, people approve, even if it means cuts to valuable investments like the education of our children.


I think it had more to do with a majority of independent voters not being comfortable with the recall process in general, without a clear crime to link to the Governor.
If you look at the two of the three successful recalls in the last year independents probably played less of a roll, or had a clear reason to vote against the incumbent. One was a republican in a Democratic leaning county, and the other one managed to make an ass of himself in every way possible prior to the election.
The latest one is in a county that is probably more comfortable with the recall process in general, since they have had more than most counties in the last decade, and it is so close that is will probably head for a recount.

pjbogart wrote:5. High turnout is not necessarily a sign of a Democratic win.


Not sure if this is just an observation or if you really thought that it was true.
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby jonnygothispen » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:25 am

Earthling wrote:
jonnygothispen wrote:I wouldn't say "sour" because I understood before the election that most people voting for Walker did so because they thought he balanced the budget. Had the media reported the facts instead of the Walker fabricated figures, you'd see a different result.

I hope this doesn't seem like a taunt at all, but how does it feel to support the big lie, and why are you proud of it?


I don't feel it is a big lie. I think most people were seeing both sides of what you consider to be the big "lie," and made their own decisions. This was more of a mandate to allow the guy his 4 years that he was elected to serve. Many didn't feel the recall was justified, and I think you saw that in the result.
I'd bet that somewhere around 65% to 70% of the people state wide think Walker balanced the budget. When voters have been polled, they've stated that was the main reason they voted for him and we all need to "buckle down."

Walker has repeatedly said he "wiped out" a $3.6 billion debt. That was a fabricated figure based on what HIS state agencies asked for. If you asked me for $5,000 and I said "no!" did I just wipe out a $5,000 debt? That debt never existed at all. This is the basis for the Big lie.

Meanwhile, Wisconsin's actual debt has increased. So the impression that Walker "wiped out" a $3.6 billion deficit/debt is way beyond a simple lie. It's a huge lie, and just one of many lies he's told.

Most people believe in recalls only when there is corruption in office, according to those polled, and there is that too. He lied about whether or not he was a target of the John Doe. Another huge lie.

If these stupendously false statements aren't lies to you, then what is?
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Earthling » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:32 am

jonnygothispen wrote:
Earthling wrote:
jonnygothispen wrote:I wouldn't say "sour" because I understood before the election that most people voting for Walker did so because they thought he balanced the budget. Had the media reported the facts instead of the Walker fabricated figures, you'd see a different result.

I hope this doesn't seem like a taunt at all, but how does it feel to support the big lie, and why are you proud of it?


I don't feel it is a big lie. I think most people were seeing both sides of what you consider to be the big "lie," and made their own decisions. This was more of a mandate to allow the guy his 4 years that he was elected to serve. Many didn't feel the recall was justified, and I think you saw that in the result.
I'd bet that somewhere around 80% of the people state wide think Walker balanced the budget. When voters have been polled, they've stated that was the main reason they voted for him and we all need to "buckle down."

Walker has repeatedly said he "wiped out" a $3.6 billion debt. That was a fabricated figure based on what HIS state agencies asked for. If you asked me for $5,000 and I said "no!" did I just wipe out a $5,000 debt? That debt never existed at all. This is the basis for the Big lie.

Meanwhile, Wisconsin's actual debt has increased. So the impression that Walker "wiped out" a $3.6 billion deficit/debt is way beyond a simple lie. It's a huge lie, and just one of many lies he's told.

Most people believe in recalls only when there is corruption in office, according to those polled, and there is that too. He lied about whether or not he was a target of the John Doe. Another huge lie.

If these stupendously false statements aren't lies to you, then what is?


Walker's office reported the misconduct leading to the John Doe investigation. You'd think if he were guilty of something he'd probably have tried to cover it up vs. actually reporting it.

The balanced budget "lie" just isn't a lie. It's a matter of perspective. Either way you are grasping at straws, failing to admit what should be obvious: Most people in this state stand with the governor. They are tired of the divisivness, they are tired of the name calling, and tired of fat cat union leaners calling the shots. I realize that nothing is ever going to change YOUR mind, but enough with the attitude that if a republic wins election they must have cheated somehow nonsense.
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Twinner » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:33 am

jonnygothispen wrote:If these stupendously false statements aren't lies to you, then what is?


When someone has his head up his ass the shit filters the falsehoods.

pjbogart wrote:1. Maybe money really is the end-all be-all of election success.


Maybe?
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby gargantua » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:37 am

A lot of it is that most people do think state employees, with their benefits, are overpaid. The one single thing (besides the money from out of state billionaires) that just drove me crazy was the repeated assertions by my conservative acquaintances that the recall was about government employees "just not wanting to pay their fair share".

It was never about that. It was about being dishonest about his intentions before the first election. If he had been forthcoming, and he won anyway, that would have been it. No recall. I would not have signed a petition if I had not been lied to so egregiously.
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:37 am

jonnygothispen wrote:Most people believe in recalls only when there is corruption in office, according to those polled, and there is that too. He lied about whether or not he was a target of the John Doe. Another huge lie.


That has yet to be confirmed though. And either way there is a huge gap between being secretly (or not so secretly) investigated, being charged with a crime, and actually being found guilty. Asking people to take it on faith that Walker is guilty of a crime just because there is a strong reason to suspect he has been investigated for over two years isn't going to bring over that many people who aren't already against the guy.

Earthling wrote:Walker's office reported the misconduct leading to the John Doe investigation. You'd think if he were guilty of something he'd probably have tried to cover it up vs. actually reporting it.


I thought that story was debunked last week by the documents released by Tim Russell's lawyer?
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby jonnygothispen » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:41 am

Earthling wrote:
Walker's office reported the misconduct leading to the John Doe investigation. You'd think if he were guilty of something he'd probably have tried to cover it up vs. actually reporting it.

The balanced budget "lie" just isn't a lie. It's a matter of perspective. Either way you are grasping at straws, failing to admit what should be obvious: Most people in this state stand with the governor. They are tired of the divisivness, they are tired of the name calling, and tired of fat cat union leaners calling the shots. I realize that nothing is ever going to change YOUR mind, but enough with the attitude that if a republic wins election they must have cheated somehow nonsense.
Look at the timeline. Walker "reported" the misconduct over a year and a 1/2 after they caught him. Tom Nardelli, Walker's chief of staff, asked Kavanaugh to give the money back just days before Walker announced his gubernatorial run in 2010, 2 or 3 years after they caught him. Walker's own email shows that he wasn't concerned about the illegal activity, but rather the news reporters catching them and writing another story about it. Walker also stonewalled the investigation and lied about being a target.

True, the balanced budget is a matter of perspective. When your debt increases, it does so because you didn't balance the budget. Any statement to the contrary is therefor a lie. Your perspective then is that a lie isn't a lie.

Your comment, "grasping at straws" is a firm lock on the only straw you have left: denying the truth about what's happening right now. Rather than face it with rational thought, you've decided in your own post to become divisive proving that your theory about unions is actually true in regards to you.

Facts would change my mind. A balanced budget would change my mind. Money in the hands of the consumer classes, those who drive a healthy economy, would change my mind. Almost everything you accused me of is more true with you than me.
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby snoqueen » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:55 am

gargantua wrote:It was never about that. It was about being dishonest about his intentions before the first election. If he had been forthcoming, and he won anyway, that would have been it. No recall. I would not have signed a petition if I had not been lied to so egregiously.


http://news.yahoo.com/what-scott-walker ... obama.html

This writer agrees with you and says the same thing applies to Obama and his health care plan. I'm not entirely sure I concur due to the difficulties in drafting the bill at all, but the analysis is thoughtful and assumes a moral dimension to political decisions that goes beyond power politics so it's worth reading.
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby pjbogart » Wed Jun 06, 2012 10:58 am

I don't see how rehashing the campaign does any good. Walker won, Barrett lost. Why? What can we do differently next time?

If labor unions are a thing of the past and Citizens United is allowed to stand, what does that say about the future of politics in America? Where do we go from here?
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Re: What I Learned on June 5th, 2012

Postby jonnygothispen » Wed Jun 06, 2012 11:03 am

Francis Di Domizio wrote:
jonnygothispen wrote:Most people believe in recalls only when there is corruption in office, according to those polled, and there is that too. He lied about whether or not he was a target of the John Doe. Another huge lie.


That has yet to be confirmed though. And either way there is a huge gap between being secretly (or not so secretly) investigated, being charged with a crime, and actually being found guilty. Asking people to take it on faith that Walker is guilty of a crime just because there is a strong reason to suspect he has been investigated for over two years isn't going to bring over that many people who aren't already against the guy.
I think that Walker inadvertently admitted he was the target when he said he wasn't funding the defense of his staff, which leaves his only reason for setting up the legal defense fund as his being the target of the investigation. Never officially stated, but none of targets were until they were indicted.

Coupled with 13 granted immunity, and 5 from his office charged, plus recent revelations that he couldn't be cleared because he is a target, one would think there should be virtually no doubt cast upon this.

I think the only doubt left is whether or not he will actually be charged.
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