MOBILE USERS: m.isthmus.com
Connect with Isthmus:         Newsletters 
Saturday, November 22, 2014 |  Madison, WI: 37.0° F  Fog
Collapse Photo Bar

New Pro-Walker Voter Suppression

Please limit discussion in this area to local and state politics.

Re: New Pro-Walker Voter Suppression

Postby pjbogart » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:14 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:The problem with using your lack of evidence is that it's the same evidence one would see if there was voter fraud occurring that wasn't being caught. I'm 100% not saying that voter fraud is happening, but rather that the evidence can't logically prove it isn't happening.


Jumpin' Jesus on a pogo stick, Francis. I hate to pile on, but you're talking about curtailing the most fundamental right of our democracy based solely on conjecture. If Scott Walker comes on television and tells us that a dozen unicorns drove up from Chicago to cast fraudulent votes it's not my responsibility to prove him wrong. He has the registrations available, go through them and show me which ones are fraudulent.

I don't understand how you can let them sucker you into this nonsense.
pjbogart
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 6183
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 4:57 pm

Re: New Pro-Walker Voter Suppression

Postby Rich Schultz » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:16 pm

There you go Henry, stay in that narrow little box because it's working so well for your side.
Rich Schultz
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 727
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:27 am

Re: New Pro-Walker Voter Suppression

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:23 pm

Rich Schultz wrote:There you go Henry, stay in that narrow little box because it's working so well for your side.

Way to go, ignore the point you made after I refuted it. Tell me again why disenfranching otherwise eligible voters is a good thing. Use logic and reason in your reply (if you can), not your usual demogoguery.
Henry Vilas
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 20145
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Name sez it all

Re: New Pro-Walker Voter Suppression

Postby Rich Schultz » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:43 pm

"Why were drivers' licenses chosen as the only acceptable voter ID?"

They weren't.
Some highlights of the act, much more verbiage at the link.
"One of the following documents that is unexpired or, if expired, has expired after the date of the most recent general election: (1) an operator’s license issued by DOT; (2) an identification card issued by DOT; (3) an identification card issued by a U.S. uniformed service; or (4) a U.S. passport.

• A certificate of U.S. naturalization that was issued not earlier than two years before the date of an election at which it is presented.
• An unexpired driving receipt issued by DOT.
• An unexpired identification card receipt issued by DOT.
• An identification card issued by a federally recognized Indian tribe in this state.
• An unexpired identification card issued by an accredited university or college in this state
.....
An absentee elector who is indefinitely confined because of age, physical illness, or infirmity, or who is disabled for an indefinite period, and who has applied for and qualified to receive absentee ballots automatically may, in lieu of providing a copy of proof of identification, submit with his or her absentee ballot a statement...

An absentee elector who resides in a nursing home, qualified retirement home, qualified community-based residential facility (CBRF), qualified residential care apartment complex, or qualified adult family home where special voting deputies are sent may, in lieu of providing a copy of proof of identification, submit with his or her absentee ballot a statement signed by ....

"...except that an elector who does not present proof of identification must be offered the opportunity to vote by provisional ballot."

"...The Act also requires GAB to engage in outreach to identify and contact groups of electors who may need assistance in obtaining or renewing a document that constitutes proof of identification for voting and provide assistance in obtaining or renewing that document."

".... Act 23 allows an elector to obtain a free identification card..."

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lc/publications/act/2011/act023-ab007.pdf

I have no problem with Hucks's and Francis's idea that ID"s be free and easily available, they are already free, availability could be improved which would be a reasonable angle to work on. No ID at all? That ship has sailed, even if no voter fraud has ever occurred in Wisconsin, how would we know, how do we know it won't occur in the future and why leave that door open? Both Republicans and Democrats seem to think the accusation of voter fraud is aimed at the Dems and voter suppression at the Repubs but that could change.

That said, your ship is sinking and you are rearranging the deck furniture.
Rich Schultz
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 727
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:27 am

Re: New Pro-Walker Voter Suppression

Postby Rich Schultz » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:01 pm

Sorry for the Titanic cliches but Henry's suggestion of trolling was so appealing I got the boat out. Nice night for it, thanks.
Rich Schultz
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 727
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:27 am

Re: New Pro-Walker Voter Suppression

Postby snoqueen » Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:52 pm

No ID at all? That ship has sailed, even if no voter fraud has ever occurred in Wisconsin, how would we know, how do we know it won't occur in the future and why leave that door open...


I don't agree with you but I've already stated why and there's no rule that says the last person to post speaks the truth and all the rest is cancelled. I do, however, think if you believe so firmly in this ID thing, you're frying one very small fish and letting the big ones get away.

The big ones include deliberately misaligned touch screens, non-auditable vote tallies with no paper backup ("see? the computer says the same thing every time I hit "refresh" so that means it's OK"),
non-auditable proprietary software held by companies that made large campaign donations to one party or the other, and questionable software managed by only one person, or on the other hand left wide open to a whole gaggle of unsworn people under one password. (Nothing says these people are all Republicans, or are all Democrats. It could go either way.)

Add in totals transferred over open links or unencrypted, and poorly secured networks open to tampering by outsiders not necessarily in this country. Add in the security problems we are presently finding at financial institutions and other supposedly secure internet services that turn out not to be secure at all. Simply put, anyone who thinks the state's or nation's vote tallies couldn't be altered has been living in a cave. Somewhere, LulzSec and Anonymous are laughing at you.

Possibly you are among those who's gotten a notice from your bank saying your account may have been compromised, or found a questionable charge from Romania on your credit card bill. This kind of more sophisticated tampering, and not some person in Milwaukee using someone else's ID, are what would be used to tip election results in the real world. If your concern genuinely is security, what you're advocating with the ID thing shows you've been played. You've been distracted from the real voting security issues, which are well beyond the level of fraud by an individual voter.

Please wake up, because we're all in this one together.
snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 11750
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: New Pro-Walker Voter Suppression

Postby Detritus » Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:31 pm

snoqueen wrote:If your concern genuinely is security, what you're advocating with the ID thing shows you've been played. You've been distracted from the real voting security issues, which are well beyond the level of fraud by an individual voter.

Please wake up, because we're all in this one together.

Well said, sno. Why would anyone bother "busing black unionists from Detroit to vote with dead people's names," to use an example I ran across on a particularly frothing comment on madison.com--when the weak link is electronic, and not in the voting booth? The right is so afraid of regular people in real life, when it's systems in the hands of moneyed interests that have the real potential to wreak havoc.
Detritus
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2507
Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 9:42 pm

Re: New Pro-Walker Voter Suppression

Postby Rich Schultz » Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:56 am

Now we are getting somewhere. Paper ballots versus voter ID are not versus but complimentary. (pardon the grammar, the beer were biting better than the fish).

I suspect electronic voting machines are popular with the impatient media who need results NOW and the contractors who provide the machines.

Paper ballots can also be manipulated and ghost voters provided, read Caro's biography of LBJ. We all hope that hasn't been happening in Wisconsin. Repubs scare themselves with busloads of out of state voters but no pictures of busses emerge. Dems scare themselves with hacked voting machines but no indictments follow. The problems may not even exist in our blessed state but why not alleviate the fears on both sides? Electronic voting machines were touted as a solution in a pre hacker era, that era has passed. You should be worried. This is our sacred vote, we need belt and suspenders.

This election had a (huge) 56%? turnout. That leaves 44% nonvoters. There may be thousands of sweet old grandma's out there with no picture ID but common sense will tell you that people that uninvolved in society are overwhelmingly nonvoters. The handful that aren't need to step up and get their papers.

None of that changes the results of this recall. Neither does the money, the problem for Dems this election was not lack of TV time but too much of it. You dominated the news for months with a mob that looked like it was led by the charming panhandlers of State Street.

When you are running on a platform that every taxpayer knows is going to jack his taxes up do you really expect to win?
Rich Schultz
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 727
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:27 am

Re: New Pro-Walker Voter Suppression

Postby snoqueen » Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:26 am

So it seems you agree the voter ID thing is a distraction from the real potential for election-stealing, which is electronic (although in some cases paper ballots forged en masse could be used too).

Do you also agree the right for an individual to vote is one that should not be abridged, even if one individual seems very unimportant in the larger scheme and misidentification of voters is not a realistic way for an election to be stolen? Seems we both agree buses of fake voters from Detroit was pretty far-fetched -- how many people fit on a bus? 60? You'd have needed thousands and thousands of buses to accomplish anything.

If you concur, we're in agreement so far. And I agree with you that voter apathy is a problem. It might also be a matter of voter disgust, given the avalanche of advertising most people were subjected to.

I would like to see legislation addressing the electronic security of elections, but that's one of those boring topics, like copyright law, that's so intricate it's hard to engage not only the public, but the legislators. The public might be willing to start with consideration of system security at a gross level: who's got the passwords, who has access to the various databases at each stage, how might security breaches happen, and how much redundancy is built in to the system.
snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 11750
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: New Pro-Walker Voter Suppression

Postby Rich Schultz » Sat Jun 09, 2012 12:54 pm

"Do you also agree the right for an individual to vote is one that should not be abridged, even if one individual seems very unimportant in the larger scheme..."

I don't believe some citizens are more important than other citizens, that's just you trying to play the mean old Republican hates Grandma card. There is some conflict between open access and secure voting and I think a reasonable place to draw the line is the picture ID.

"...misidentification of voters is not a realistic way for an election to be stolen?"

There's a reason dead people vote in Chicago.

"I would like to see legislation addressing the electronic security of elections..."

I would like to address the problem by eliminating voting machines.

"And I agree with you that voter apathy is a problem."

I'm sorry if I misled you, I think non mandatory voting is a brilliant solution to voter apathy. In my opinion democracy is well served when the uninterested self-select and voluntarily opt out.

"It might also be a matter of voter disgust, given the avalanche of advertising most people were subjected to."

Agreed. 90+% of the comments I heard about the recall were disgust with the number of ads on TV. I honestly believe Walker's margin would have been even bigger if the campaign had run half the ads they did run.
Rich Schultz
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 727
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:27 am

Re: New Pro-Walker Voter Suppression

Postby Henry Vilas » Sat Jun 09, 2012 1:41 pm

Rich Schultz wrote:There may be thousands of sweet old grandma's out there with no picture ID but common sense will tell you that people that uninvolved in society are overwhelmingly nonvoters.

You call it common sense. I call it bullshit. Seniors tend to be much more aware of politics and current events than younger generations. But many are physically unable to drive. They also have great difficulty getting to DMV offices to obtain a Wisconsin ID. And as our population is aging and people are living longer, their numbers are getting much bigger. But you are willing to throw them under the bus in the name of stopping virtually non-existence voter fraud.

It isn't just the elderly who have no government issued IDs. Of the 11% of Americans without, they also include students, the poor and minorities.
Henry Vilas
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 20145
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Name sez it all

Re: New Pro-Walker Voter Suppression

Postby Rich Schultz » Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:14 pm

So get one.
Rich Schultz
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 727
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:27 am

Re: New Pro-Walker Voter Suppression

Postby snoqueen » Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:45 pm

"Do you also agree the right for an individual to vote is one that should not be abridged, even if one individual seems very unimportant in the larger scheme..."

I don't believe some citizens are more important than other citizens, that's just you trying to play the mean old Republican hates Grandma card. There is some conflict between open access and secure voting and I think a reasonable place to draw the line is the picture ID.


I preserved this quote so it can't be denied or changed later.

All citizens in Wisconsin who are not felons, underage, or part of a few other narrowly defined classes have the right to vote. Safeguarding this right is not playing some "mean old Republican hates Grandma card." It is not different from safeguarding the enfranchisement of women or blacks.

The country fought a long battle in the Deep South against such voter screening hurdles as literacy tests, and to me these unnecessarily difficult identification rituals are no different. They just take the form of mobility tests, having a friend with a car, gas, and half a day to drive you to the DMV in Mellon tests, and the like. It's just inches from requirinig voters to pass financial qualifications, if you think it over, and that dispute dates back to the original writing of the Constitution. One would hope we've got settled law today to back up the assertion nobody should be disenfranchised because he lacks the means to meet these irrelevant requirements. Having a car, half a day off work, and the gas to get to a distant DMV office to prove you are a qualified voter is a stretch.

Maybe this is a fundamental difference between our two political sectors, namely the importance of the individual and his vote. Seems like your idea of voting rights is that for any given individual those rights are somehow optional, at the convenience of bureaucracy. I am surprised at this given the sturdy defense of individual rights seen from the right on other issues. But a difference is a difference, and I don't mean to misrepresent your side here so re-word this if you find I have done so.

I have no problem with all-paper ballots, incidentally. I could also discuss mail-in paper ballots with an electronic option if one can be designed with acceptable security. I also believe we should consider statewide voter rolls so a voter can go to any polling place and be checked off on the master database instead of some Biblical system where the voter has to return to his hometown to be enrolled. If you can use your credit card at any terminal, why can't you vote at any polling place? Electronic security has to be respectable, but we seem to agree it's not so hot right now and any improvement would be, well, an improvement. These matters should be on the table, with no foreordained conclusions, instead of the present silly fixation on carding with just one special, oddly inconvenient kind of card.

I am starting to believe this whole dispute is illusory and could be solved with a few non-controversial technology fixes.
snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 11750
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: New Pro-Walker Voter Suppression

Postby Rich Schultz » Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:19 pm

I've already stated I agree with Francis, Huckleby, and I assume yourself that there should be better options for obtaining an ID then the DMV.

Somewhere closer, more convenient, where the elderly, the poor and the disabled congregate, where the hours are longer and the staff friendlier. Walmart and Walgreens come to mind.

Most students without picture ID's aren't old enough to vote. In my day many of my fellow students had more than one picture ID, if you know what I mean.

That leaves the shut-ins, perhaps some humanitarian types could assist.

"Seems like your idea of voting rights is that for any given individual those rights are somehow optional, at the convenience of bureaucracy."

Quite the opposite, I believe voting should be optional, at the convenience of the citizen.

I will leave it to you big government fans to disparage the DMV.
Rich Schultz
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 727
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:27 am

Re: New Pro-Walker Voter Suppression

Postby Rich Schultz » Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:32 pm

Henry the V, are you comfortable with the cemetery vote in Chicago?
Rich Schultz
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 727
Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:27 am

PreviousNext

Return to Local Politics & Government

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

moviesmusiceats
Select a Movie
Select a Theater


commentsViewedForum
  ISTHMUS FLICKR
Created with flickr badge.

Promotions Contact us Privacy Policy Jobs Newsletters RSS
Collapse Photo Bar