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The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:22 pm

News report from the day after Trayvon Martin was shot. One minute into the story a witness tell reporter that Martin was on top of Zimmerman and that Zimmerman was yelling for help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RaknmTk ... re=related
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Sat Jun 23, 2012 5:58 pm

rabble wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:You tried to tie in ADD with memory of recent events. I simply pointed out that I don't know if the effects of ADD might have an effect on the recollection of events. Just because ADD might affect the memory of a street name, one can't jump to the conclusion, as you evidently are willing to do, that it also effects one's ability to recall the details of an experience. You haven't claimed to be an expert on ADD, so why ought we be persuaded that his ADD memory issues could include issues about event memory?

The only thing I tied was "memory" to "bad." You're the one who decided the ADD was the only thing I mentioned. You're still ignoring the "I've got a bad memory" statement.

And that's fine. It doesn't support your conclusion. Therefore we should talk about ADD.


You're putting an unreasonable amount of emphasis on the "I have a bad memory" statement. From all appearances he said "I have a bad memory" when the cop asked him why he didn't remember the name of the street. From that, without any supporting reasons, you seem to think it is fair to conclude that no statement that George Zimmerman makes is reliable because he either doesn't remember it correctly or he's filling in blanks in his memory from his imagination. That's a huge leap in logic and common sense. Since nobody can claim perfect memory, then by your reasoning all memories are suspect.

From wiki: The fallacy of composition arises when one infers that something is true of the whole from the fact that it is true of some part of the whole
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby rabble » Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:22 pm

Sure. "I have a bad memory" might not mean "my memory is bad."

You know, you're a pretty damn knowledgeable expert on lots of things when you wanna be.

Unless it's something that doesn't support your conclusion. Then, nobody ought to comment on it unless they are.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:28 pm

babble wrote:Sure. "I have a bad memory" might not mean "my memory is bad."

You know, you're a pretty damn knowledgeable expert on lots of things when you wanna be.

Unless it's something that doesn't support your conclusion. Then, nobody ought to comment on it unless they are.


I know this: To a reasonable person the sentence "I have a bad memory" is not the same as saying "Everything I say is unreliable because I have a bad memory and either I don't remember or I make things up." Yet, that is how you would have us understand his statement. A reasonable person would understand that there are many gradations of "bad memory" although you apparently only recognize black and white extremes: total recall or total amnesia.

I suppose if a person said they had a "bad knee" you'd take it to mean they're incapacitated and unable to move. I guess there's no straw too thin that you won't grasp at it.

Evidently, for a guy that you consider to have a propensity to make unreliable statements, Zimmerman's statements about what happened that night have been consistent throughout and consistent with information from other sources. That's either a sign that he's being honest and recalls the events, or, a sign that he is a very accomplished liar-- something that a person with a bad memory wouldn't be able to pull off.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby rabble » Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:09 am

Ah. I see. "I have a bad memory. Except about THAT. I have a good memory for that. My memory is only bad for the stuff you can verify. It's great for the stuff you can't"

We'll see how that works in court.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Sun Jun 24, 2012 10:09 am

rabble wrote:Ah. I see. "I have a bad memory. Except about THAT. I have a good memory for that. My memory is only bad for the stuff you can verify. It's great for the stuff you can't"

We'll see how that works in court.


What makes you so sure Zimmerman will testify in court? Secondly, are you claiming that your memory has never failed you?
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Remember_Me » Sun Jun 24, 2012 2:09 pm

Dangerousman wrote:Secondly, are you claiming that your memory has never failed you?


He's still thinking....
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Sun Jun 24, 2012 3:02 pm

Remember_Me wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:Secondly, are you claiming that your memory has never failed you?


He's still thinking....


No, that implies that he ever began.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby rabble » Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:10 am

I ain't the one testifying, but as long as you're using me as an example of Zimmerman's testimony, I have been in violent situations and lo and behold, it turned out my memories of the incidents weren't quite the way the witnesses saw it.

And oddly, my memories of those incidents stayed pretty consistent. They way I remembered them stayed the same even though others around me remembered it differently.

Just sayin. Don't want to say you guys are wrong, since you're obviously experts in eyewitness testimony analysis.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby DCB » Mon Jun 25, 2012 8:36 am

Dangerousman wrote:
babble wrote:Sure. "I have a bad memory" might not mean "my memory is bad."

You know, you're a pretty damn knowledgeable expert on lots of things when you wanna be.

Unless it's something that doesn't support your conclusion. Then, nobody ought to comment on it unless they are.


I know this: To a reasonable person the sentence "I have a bad memory" is not the same as saying "Everything I say is unreliable because I have a bad memory and either I don't remember or I make things up." Yet, that is how you would have us understand his statement..

To a reasonable person, it means his credibility is in doubt. He might remember 90% correctly, but how are we to know which 10% is faulty ?
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:07 am

DCB wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:
babble wrote:Sure. "I have a bad memory" might not mean "my memory is bad."

You know, you're a pretty damn knowledgeable expert on lots of things when you wanna be.

Unless it's something that doesn't support your conclusion. Then, nobody ought to comment on it unless they are.


I know this: To a reasonable person the sentence "I have a bad memory" is not the same as saying "Everything I say is unreliable because I have a bad memory and either I don't remember or I make things up." Yet, that is how you would have us understand his statement..

To a reasonable person, it means his credibility is in doubt. He might remember 90% correctly, but how are we to know which 10% is faulty ?


No, a reasonable person understands that NO person will be expected to have perfect memory of every detail. Does that mean every person's credibility is in doubt? No. Memory and credibility are two different things. The objectionable and totally unsubstantiated claim that was made here is that Zimmerman fills in gaps in his memory with falsehoods-- either consciously or unconsciously. What do most people do when they can't remember something? They say, "I don't remember." What grounds are there for thinking Zimmerman wouldn't do the same? The "filling in the blanks" argument is just being pulled out of the air. Having a bad memory doesn't affect credibility, but making up stuff does. Every reasonable person will concede that Zimmerman, like every person on earth, lacks a perfect memory. But lack of perfect memory does not necessarily entail that he states falsehoods when his memory fails.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:14 am

rabble wrote: He's filling in the details he can't remember and he thinks they're memories. Even if he passes that lie detection thing, we can't trust that what he says is really what happened.


Show that he is filling in details he can't remember. There's not a single shred of evidence that he's doing that.

It's more like you're filling bullshit into your mess of an argument.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby rabble » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:30 am

Dangerousman wrote:
rabble wrote: He's filling in the details he can't remember and he thinks they're memories. Even if he passes that lie detection thing, we can't trust that what he says is really what happened.


Show that he is filling in details he can't remember. There's not a single shred of evidence that he's doing that.

It's more like you're filling bullshit into your mess of an argument.

Yeah. The only evidence we have is him saying he's got a bad memory. We have no evidence either way otherwise. We have what appear to be conflicting eyewitness reports, but that don't mean nothin.

WE DON'T KNOW! According to you, that means we can trust him because, well, sometimes we all forget stuff, and he's been pretty consistent about the stuff he thinks he remembers pretty good, except for a few street names in his "patrol" area where he spends lots of time. So we can trust his story. Consistency means credibility.

Yah. Let's just see how that goes, shall we? Y'all keep on doubling down. 'Cause you're experts in the field now.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby jman111 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:34 am

Reading this exchange reinforces something I have observed previously.
jman111 wrote:Dman appears to prefer to hold others to absolutes and strict definitions, despite his apparent aversion to holding himself to similar standards.

As they say, "just sayin'."
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Remember_Me » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:04 pm

jman111 wrote:Reading this exchange reinforces something I have observed previously.
jman111 wrote:Dman appears to prefer to hold others to absolutes and strict definitions, despite his apparent aversion to holding himself to similar standards.

As they say, "just sayin'."


In all your "observing" I have to ask, do you ever have anything to add to the discussion? Your own thoughts, opinions, etc on the topic?

This just reinforces something I have observed previously.

Just sayin'.
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