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The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby rabble » Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:22 pm

Remember_Me wrote:
jman111 wrote:Reading this exchange reinforces something I have observed previously.
jman111 wrote:Dman appears to prefer to hold others to absolutes and strict definitions, despite his apparent aversion to holding himself to similar standards.

As they say, "just sayin'."


In all your "observing" I have to ask, do you ever have anything to add to the discussion? Your own thoughts, opinions, etc on the topic?

This just reinforces something I have observed previously.

Just sayin'.

And the moral is, it's okay to have a "do as I say not as I do" attitude for standards as long as you contribute to the topic. And no one can point that out unless they adhere to strict topical standards from the nannies.

More gems from the experts.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby jman111 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:01 pm

Remember_Me wrote:In all your "observing" I have to ask, do you ever have anything to add to the discussion? Your own thoughts, opinions, etc on the topic?

Seems to me that personal thoughts (like erroneous assumptions, unfounded proclamations, etc.) and opinions are a few of the last things for which this thread is lacking.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:17 pm

rabble wrote:WE DON'T KNOW! According to you, that means we can trust him because, well, sometimes we all forget stuff, and he's been pretty consistent about the stuff he thinks he remembers pretty good, except for a few street names in his "patrol" area where he spends lots of time. So we can trust his story. Consistency means credibility.


I know it's futile to say this, but stop claiming that I made statements that I did not make.

I didn't argue that his statements must be regarded as credible. I argued that it is wrong to assume-- as you unsuccessfully tried to argue-- that his statements are not credible on the basis of his ADD and admittedly flawed memory. Perhaps there are other reasons to doubt his credibility, but the reason that you suggested does not appear to have any valid support. At the very least you've not presented any evidence to support your argument. And I'm glad you're finally admitting it.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby rabble » Mon Jun 25, 2012 2:19 pm

Dangerousman wrote:
rabble wrote:WE DON'T KNOW! According to you, that means we can trust him because, well, sometimes we all forget stuff, and he's been pretty consistent about the stuff he thinks he remembers pretty good, except for a few street names in his "patrol" area where he spends lots of time. So we can trust his story. Consistency means credibility.


I know it's futile to say this, but stop claiming that I made statements that I did not make.

I didn't argue that his statements must be regarded as credible. I argued that it is wrong to assume-- as you unsuccessfully tried to argue-- that his statements are not credible on the basis of his ADD and admittedly flawed memory. Perhaps there are other reasons to doubt his credibility, but the reason that you suggested does not appear to have any valid support. At the very least you've not presented any evidence to support your argument. And I'm glad you're finally admitting it.

Damn. A whole post without you using the word "consistent." I'm glad you're finally giving up on that. :-)
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:44 pm

rabble wrote:Damn. A whole post without you using the word "consistent." I'm glad you're finally giving up on that. :-)


If you ever took a course in logic-- and it's evident that you have not-- you might have a greater understanding and appreciation for the term.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby jman111 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:15 pm

Dangerousman wrote:
rabble wrote:Damn. A whole post without you using the word "consistent." I'm glad you're finally giving up on that. :-)


If you ever took a course in logic-- and it's evident that you have not-- you might have a greater understanding and appreciation for the term.

Serious question for Dman-
Are you saying that your use of the term in reference to Zimmerman's stories being "generally consistent" is equivalent to the use of the term in describing a logical theory? If so, doesn't it seem that being "generally consistent" would in no way support consistency of a theory?
Dangerousman wrote:I do know that witnesses to shocking events tend to have varying accounts of the same event because everyone's perceptions are different, particularly under stress. His statements have been generally consistent, which suggests he's either being honest or is a highly accomplished liar-- something few people can pull off.

Could you hedge a claim of "consistency" in your logic courses?
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Dangerousman » Mon Jun 25, 2012 6:49 pm

In formal logic, inconsistency is the greatest sin possible, because it results in something being both true and untrue at the same time. Some people are rational and place a high value on logical consistency.

Insofar as it relates to Zimmerman or a similar case, a discussion of consistency isn't so much about the abstract technical use of the term in logic but about the practical implications.

Police know it's not easy to make many untrue statements without at some point making statements that contradict earlier statements. That's why the police want a suspect to talk, talk and talk some more. Eventually, if he's lying, he's likely to contradict himself. To make many statements without contradiction is an indication of either A) the statements are honest, or B) the person is a top-notch liar. Being a top-notch anything isn't easy, so what are the odds? In particular, what are the odds that someone with ADD memory problems would also be a top-notch liar? Elaborate lies would require an exceptional memory in order to avoid contradictions. If you watch even a few episodes of "Cops" or "Bait Car" you'll see that suspects stumble all over their stories usually.

Zimmerman's statements, and there are many to look at, do not contain any glaring contradictions. So they're self-consistent. They are also generally externally consistent with other facts of the case that are known, e.g., statements of other witnesses, Zimmerman's own and other peoples' phone calls to the police that night.

His memory isn't perfect. Big deal. Who has a perfect memory? Nobody. In fact, if he could recall everything, I'd be suspicious.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby jman111 » Mon Jun 25, 2012 7:18 pm

Thanks for all the extra info, but my question was intended to relate specifically to your reference to the term "consistent" and courses "in logic".
Dangerousman wrote:Insofar as it relates to Zimmerman or a similar case, a discussion of consistency isn't so much about the abstract technical use of the term in logic but about the practical implications.


Curious, then, that when we had an earlier discussion about my use of the term ad hominem, you insisted that its use was inappropriate because you hadn't committed the fallacy as it is defined for "abstract technical use", rather than in the "practical" way that I clearly explained.
Dangerousman wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:After all, getting a concealed carry permit is no different than voting for a PTO president.


Henry, you must be an inspiration to those who aspire to going through life completely clueless.

jman111 wrote:Seems to me there actually was an intended implication regarding the validity of Hank's statement in your ad hominem? Perhaps you were implicitly asserting a conclusion, no?

Dangerousman wrote:I majored in philosophy as both an undergrad and graduate student. An ad hominem argument is certainly invalid as a means of attacking the truth of someone's assertions. An example: Henry is stupid. Therefore, what Henry said is not true.

That's not my argument in the earlier post. I am merely asserting the premise, not the conclusion. Insofar as it is "ad hominen" it is logically valid (and sound.)

It sure seems to me as if you are holding another (specifically, me) to a different, higher standard. Perhaps you, or others, don't see it that way. If so, I'd like to hear why.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby rabble » Thu Jul 05, 2012 2:34 pm

Zimmerman bail set at $1M
Getting bond twice is rare but Lester's ruling shows that he is a no-nonsense judge that takes this case very seriously, said Richard Rosenbaum, a criminal defense attorney in Fort Lauderdale.

"There was a lot of negative language," Rosenbaum said of the order. "I was a little surprised that at the end he gave him a bond. But, it's such a high bond that it may be one that Zimmerman can't conquer."

The $1 million bond will be hard for Zimmerman to meet because he not only has to come up with 10% of the amount--$100,000--but Zimmerman will have to put up $1 million worth of assets as collateral in case he flees, Rosenbaum said.

"I doubt that Zimmerman can back a million dollar bond unless he has every relative and friend willing to put their houses up for him," he said.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Stebben84 » Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:04 pm

Maybe remember me and D man will put their houses up for collateral.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Remember_Me » Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:11 pm

Sean Hannity has already arranged the bail and collateral and Zimmerman is expected to be out by the weekend.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:13 pm

Fair and balanced.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby Remember_Me » Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:18 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Fair and balanced.


I'm just glad I won't have to put up my house.
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Re: The Trayvon Martin & George Zimmerman Story

Postby wack wack » Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:45 pm

Remember_Me wrote:Sean Hannity has already arranged the bail and collateral and Zimmerman is expected to be out by the weekend.


Excellent! I hope Georgie runs like hell.
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