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Affirmative Action

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Huckleby » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:35 pm

Meade wrote:
Huckleby wrote:Hopefully the response will be to create poverty-based preferences.

Because, when it comes to college, nothing predicts success like poverty.


well, lets look at that: If a kid from a poor background has a strong application, that is more impressive in many ways than a kid from a wealthy background with an otherwise similar application. The kid from poverty is more likely to succeed, once he catches-up educationally.

The choice to give preference to the poorer kid is reasonable just on Darwinian grounds. Agreed?
Well, then you can add-on the societal benefits of spreading the example of success to poorer groups and areas.

This affirmative action thing has a lot going for it.
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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Bludgeon » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:52 pm

Yknow if there's one thing the last few years has made clear to me, its that this country has completely lost all ability to talk about race in a constructive or even rational fashion. Not talking about yourself, of course.

Me, I look at institutionalized discrimination as a problem that needs to be solved. But I don't look at our society as the place its likely to happen. Honestly the problems are worse than they've ever been since the sufferage bills were signed.

What do we have, a twelve page thread on voter ID? Rationally, liberals know that percentage of voting age adults who have never had an ID, in any demographic, assuming they are citizens, can't be more than 0.05%. But bring up voter fraud and suddenly, no, there is a mutant army living in the sewers who have no identification.

You bring up the pertinant subject of Affirmative Action before the court is scheduled to pick it up; you mention that the color of a person's skin isn't the best indicator of whether they should get to go to the front of the line or not, and suddenly nobody wants to talk about it. I commend your interest in justice and in equality. Alas the more important the issue becomes for you, the less interest you'll find from other Democrats.

There's too much vested interest in the politics of "social justice" for that political party to ever benefit from working to bring these issues to resolution.
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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:35 pm

Bludgeon wrote: Rationally, liberals know that percentage of voting age adults who have never had an ID, in any demographic, assuming they are citizens, can't be more than 0.05%.

I assume you just made up that number. Pew Research disagrees with your assertion. So do two circuit court judges, both who issued restraining orders against enforcement of the voter ID law.
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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby rabble » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:08 pm

Wow. I've been going by the "even one is too many" standard when I weigh in on the ID thing. We're supposed to be a free country. You're supposed to be able to vote even if you're one of the few who doesn't have an id.

But almost 10 percent overall, almost 15 for Latinos, 13 for African Americans, and 7(!) percent for whites?

That ain't just a few.
Anyway, to paraphrase the bludge, rationally, convervatives have to know the percentage of voter fraud, in any precinct, in any demographic, is less than 0.05%. But bring up disenfranchised voters and suddenly there's an army of zombies and terrorists wandering from voting booth to voting booth, destroying our country with an evil cackle and muttering about hating our freedom.
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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Bludgeon » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:25 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
Bludgeon wrote: Rationally, liberals know that percentage of voting age adults who have never had an ID, in any demographic, assuming they are citizens, can't be more than 0.05%.

I assume you just made up that number. Pew Research disagrees with your assertion. So do two circuit court judges, both who issued restraining orders against enforcement of the voter ID law.


See, I knew we could find a racially charged topic TDPF would want to talk about! Your ability to quote junk stats never ceases to amaze me.

Nice ACLU survey, by the way. You're only citing Pew Research to the extent that they posted the ACLU stats in their newsreel. The ACLU's whole job is to hold anything up in court by any means possible.

I suppose its an appropriate enough source for this thread though, considering it will be the ACLU holding up any attempt to implement an income based standard to the Affirmative Action laws.
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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:31 pm

Junk stats? Like your "can't be more than 0.05%"? Do you think both circuit court judges accepted junk in issuing their restraining orders? Come up with what you think are better numbers (with a link) and then you may have an argument. Right now you just have preconceived notions.
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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Bludgeon » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:06 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Junk stats? Like your "can't be more than 0.05%"? Do you think both circuit court judges accepted junk in issuing their restraining orders? Come up with what you think are better numbers (with a link) and then you may have an argument. Right now you just have preconceived notions.


Read closer, I said 0.05% of all eligible citizens never had an ID, perhaps a hyperbolic estimation.

Neither circuit court judge needed statistics to know that they were going to (temporarily) hold up the law for political reasons no matter what drivel was put before them.

Anyway, I've won the voter fraud argument a thousand times and I'm not going to reinvent the wheel for members of the class who were not paying attention the first time.

Meanwhile, you and rabble have found your way onto Huckleby's Affirmative Action thread. Perhaps you would care to comment on the context of his argument. Couldn't get much more disgraceful than letting him offer up constructive observations only for you guys to ignore him and Meade to antagonize him.
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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Cornbread » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:15 pm

Igor wrote:
peripat wrote:or the Madison Police Department's war on hip hop


Given that Noble Wray is the Chief of Police, I assume that you are
of the opinion that the racism is coming from higher up? Are you thinking Soglin, the city council, or Scott Walker?

The war is not on hip-hop. The war is on douchebag hip-hop fans with guns.


I don't think your understand--everthing is some sort of evil plot to progressive democrats. So all of these groups when, not waging a war on women, or wanting to kill children, are trying to, ah, have a war to kill a genre of music. :shock: :lol:

BTW, how can they get guns (pistols I presume) in leftist madison? Didn't hippieboy soglin ban their sales?
And isn't it illegal to carry a pistol into a concert venue/bar?
They need to get their concealed carry permit revoked. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:17 pm

These are permanent injunctions, issued because the evidence presented so far is likely to be upheld when the full trial concludes and permanent harm would result if they were not issued. Those injunctions are based on legal reasoning, not political whim.

And never having an ID is not the issue. It's possession of a current ID, which people lack who no longer have the ability to safely drive a vehicle.
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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Cornbread » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:19 pm

Huckleby wrote:But I am not for dismantling Affirmative Action entirely. Specifically, we are talking about college admissions.

You're isolation and insulation of being a leftist is glaring here.
There are things before college/university.

So, why do blacks have something like 50% high school dropout rates? And 'hispanics' even greater?
And why do both lead in teenage pregnancy?
And why do both of them lead in incarceration?
And why do both of them lead in being victims of homicide (by other minorities)?


Yet you only want to talk about how to get more of them into your UW madison..... :lol:

I want to make preferences income-based, which will indirectly continue to level the playing field for minorities.


Classic madison leftist democrat fixation....
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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby pjbogart » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:24 pm

Bludgeon wrote:Nice ACLU survey, by the way. You're only citing Pew Research to the extent that they posted the ACLU stats in their newsreel. The ACLU's whole job is to hold anything up in court by any means possible.


I suppose Henry could get better results if he posted from Breitbart or Rush Limbaugh's homepage? Conservatives' insistence that there is some vast conspiracy suppressing the truth has gone from tiresome to clownish in the last few years. There's an inherent danger in listening to someone who says, "you can't trust anyone but me. I'm the only one telling the truth." Oh sure, they might start off by telling the truth, but by the time they know you'll believe anything they say they're pretty much set to cash in on your ignorance. Global warming is a hoax! They're building a mosque at Ground Zero! Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction!

You're willing to dismiss a statistic just because it comes from the ACLU, yet you'd pull completely fictional statistics out of thin air to bolster your arguments? Perhaps the problem is that you don't really want to know the truth unless it conforms to your preconceived notions. Well, if the truth is that 10% of Americans don't have a state ID, you're going to be waiting a long time before you hear it reported on Fox.

The ACLU is willing to go to court with their statistics, and it's generally considered a bad career move for lawyers to lie to a judge. Are you willing to go to court with your 0.5% statistic?
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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:58 pm

More stats on who doesn't possess the required IDs and on one of the judges who issued a permanent injunction: Can Harsh Voter ID Laws Threaten Democracy? A Judge Says "Yes"
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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby DCB » Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:22 pm

pjbogart wrote:You're willing to dismiss a statistic just because it comes from the ACLU, yet you'd pull completely fictional statistics out of thin air to bolster your arguments?

which he admits is a
hyperbolic exaggeration


I was skeptical of the voter ID law when it was brought up. But I was willing to listen to the arguments. Sadly the arguments go like this:
Point: We have multiple studies of actual people showing that many of them don't currently have an ID.

Counter point: Nuh-uh, I don't believe you. And besides, I just know.

It sounds like the AA arguments are similar.
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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby pjbogart » Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:59 pm

Sorry, I can't resist. Assuming that Cornholio's assertions are true (and I have no reason to doubt him!):

Cornbread wrote:So, why do blacks have something like 50% high school dropout rates?

Poverty
Cornbread wrote: And 'hispanics' even greater?

Poverty
Cornbread wrote:And why do both lead in teenage pregnancy?

Poverty
Cornbread wrote:And why do both of them lead in incarceration?

Poverty
Cornbread wrote:And why do both of them lead in being victims of homicide (by other minorities)?

Poverty
Cornbread wrote:Yet you only want to talk about how to get more of them into your UW madison.....

Yes, to break the cycle of poverty

Tell us, oh wise seer, why do you think Blacks and Hispanics have high dropout, teen pregnancy and incarceration rates? You seem to be implying that they are inherently inferior. I know you don't recognize this, because you're not a leftist, but you're a constant reminder that there's nothing superior about white folks.
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Re: Affirmative Action

Postby Huckleby » Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:16 pm

Cornbread wrote: There are things before college/university.

So, why do blacks have something like 50% high school dropout rates? And 'hispanics' even greater?
And why do both lead in teenage pregnancy?
And why do both of them lead in incarceration?
And why do both of them lead in being victims of homicide (by other minorities)?


Yet you only want to talk about how to get more of them into your UW madison..... :lol:

OK, I will take a stab at answering your questions, same answer to all: Because minorities have become so morally degraded by the corrupting influence of the welfare state.

Am I warm?

Look, I agree with you that the problems are mostly working their harm during the early life of poor people. I'm not going to get into a stale, ideological argument about the causes and effects. Further, I never proposed college affirmative action as any sort of panacea. You changed the topic, and slipped into a canned speech. We are talking about college bound, poor students who presumably have demonstrated the skills and motivation needed to succeed. Whether there are a few or a lot of such candidates is irrelvant.

Cornbread wrote:
I want to make preferences income-based, which will indirectly continue to level the playing field for minorities.
Classic madison leftist democrat fixation....
You're dead wrong. America as the land of opportunity is a value shared among conservatives and liberals. You personally may not care about creating opportunity for all, but there many more enlightened conservatives who are very much concerned about upward mobility.
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