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Shorewood bike cops again

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Re: Shorewood bike cops again

Postby Detritus » Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:37 am

Henry Vilas wrote:
TeachInPeace wrote:...who fly past me on the right, when I am in the right hand turning lane, stopped, blinker on, and then Evil Knieval (whatevs) has to shoot the mill right before I make my turn. :evil:

The laws of man might not catch up to them, but the laws of physics eventually will.

Twice in the past year I have almost participated in enforcing those particular laws of physics on a bicyclist--and then they flip me off when I yell at them. One of them yelled back "Mind your own business!"

Immortality must be a real kick.
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Re: Shorewood bike cops again

Postby DCB » Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:35 am

Detritus wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:
TeachInPeace wrote:...who fly past me on the right, when I am in the right hand turning lane, stopped, blinker on, and then Evil Knieval (whatevs) has to shoot the mill right before I make my turn. :evil:

The laws of man might not catch up to them, but the laws of physics eventually will.

Twice in the past year I have almost participated in enforcing those particular laws of physics on a bicyclist--and then they flip me off when I yell at them. One of them yelled back "Mind your own business!"

Immortality must be a real kick.

Yeah, don't pass right-turning vehicles on the right. My problem is the inverse.

I'm just biking along, and Mario Andretti has to zip by me on the left. OK, fine.

Then puts on the right turn signal and slows down, approaching the intersection. And stops. And waits.

It was critically important to get to the intersection 10 milliseconds faster; but because you're so caring and sensitive, you're going to wait for me to pass?

Uh, no. I'm not going to pass a right-turning vehicle on the right (see above). I'm going to wait back here, while you continue on to your Very Important destination.
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Re: Shorewood bike cops again

Postby seemunkyz » Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:33 pm

DCB wrote:I'm just biking along, and Mario Andretti has to zip by me on the left. OK, fine.

Then puts on the right turn signal and slows down, approaching the intersection. And stops. And waits.

It was critically important to get to the intersection 10 milliseconds faster; but because you're so caring and sensitive, you're going to wait for me to pass?

Uh, no. I'm not going to pass a right-turning vehicle on the right (see above). I'm going to wait back here, while you continue on to your Very Important destination.



Ok, my question to you, was there a sidewalk that you could legally be riding on in this case? If the sidewalk doesn't meet the building, you can ride your bike on it! I have been Mario Andretti in this story several times in an instance where the biker could legally be on the sidewalk, but chose a lane of auto traffic instead. Keep in mind it is a lot more wear and tear on the car to have to stop twice (once for you and once for the corner) than it does to stop once. Also, was there an alternate side street or bike path you could have taken? In general bikes should stay out of major car traffic lanes unless absolutely necessary.

The biggest issue here is and always will be that bikers in this town don't recognize or respect the fact that they have a specific set of laws to follow on top of normal traffic laws. Perhaps if everyone started following these laws, bikers wouldn't keep getting taken out.
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Re: Shorewood bike cops again

Postby Stebben84 » Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:51 pm

seemunkyz wrote: In general bikes should stay out of major car traffic lanes unless absolutely necessary.


No. Sorry. Bicycles have a legal right to be on the road. Pedestrians HATE when bikes ride on the sidewalk.

seemunkyz wrote: Also, was there an alternate side street


Uh, you just said they shouldn't be on the roads. How do you know this didn't happen on said alternate side street.

seemunkyz wrote:The biggest issue here is and always will be that bikers in this town don't recognize or respect the fact that they have a specific set of laws to follow on top of normal traffic laws.


Such as?

It's been a while since we've had a good bike bashing thread.
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Re: Shorewood bike cops again

Postby DCB » Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:43 pm

seemunkyz wrote:The biggest issue here is and always will be that bikers in this town don't recognize or respect the fact that they have a specific set of laws to follow on top of normal traffic laws. Perhaps if everyone started following these laws, bikers wouldn't keep getting taken out.
You're ignorant. Stay off the roads until you've learned the rules of the road.
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Re: Shorewood bike cops again

Postby seemunkyz » Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:06 pm

Stebben84 wrote:
seemunkyz wrote: In general bikes should stay out of major car traffic lanes unless absolutely necessary.


No. Sorry. Bicycles have a legal right to be on the road. Pedestrians HATE when bikes ride on the sidewalk.

seemunkyz wrote: Also, was there an alternate side street


Uh, you just said they shouldn't be on the roads. How do you know this didn't happen on said alternate side street.

seemunkyz wrote:The biggest issue here is and always will be that bikers in this town don't recognize or respect the fact that they have a specific set of laws to follow on top of normal traffic laws.


Such as?

It's been a while since we've had a good bike bashing thread.


1) It doesn't matter what the pedestrians think, because Bikes have a legal right to be on the sidewalk where a building doesn't abut the sidewalk. Also, if bikers held up to the following code, pedestrians wouldn't have issue. (Which i believe is right along the lines of what my entire post was about, that bikers don't know the friggin ordinances!)

"Bicycling is allowed on sidewalks, EXCEPT where buildings are not set back from the sidewalk, as in commercial districts. Pedestrians always have the right of way on sidewalks and in crosswalks. Give an audible warning before passing pedestrians, and pass with care." - Directly from city Bike Ordinance.

I understand that State law says that bikes are equivalent to a motorized vehicle, and I recognized that in my original post, if you were to pay attention before you blindly start retaliating you would have seen that. HOWEVER, the state also says that Cities are allowed to supercede state law by creating their own ordinances, such as the one above about being able to ride on certain sidewalks. Why do you think they made it legal to ride on certain sidewalks, and added a bunch of bike lanes to major roads? Because with the high volume of traffic of MAJOR roads, it is just too dangerous, and was causing several car-bike collisions. That is why I say that bikes need to realise that they have TWO sets of laws to follow.

The one point that I will admit I left out, is I don't know if the person who originally posted had a bike/turn lane that they were in. In this case, yes, the bike had right of way. It didn't sound like this was the case though, nor was it the case in the situations where I've been in my car.

2) I said MAJOR lanes of traffic, i.e. University Ave in Middleton, Whitney Way south of Mineral Point, Williamson St., etc., all of which have legal riding on sidewalks, as well as nearby side streets and trails that can be accessed for a safer ride. And I don't know if they were on a side street, which is why I asked, and was making the suggestion to do so next time. Despite laws, ordinances, etc. it is the logical thing to do anyway.

3)Such as: http://www.cityofmadison.com/bikeMadison/getBiking/
It is even better explained in the City of Madison Bike Map, which I suggest everyone read before getting on a bike in Madison.
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Re: Shorewood bike cops again

Postby seemunkyz » Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:13 pm

DCB wrote:
seemunkyz wrote:The biggest issue here is and always will be that bikers in this town don't recognize or respect the fact that they have a specific set of laws to follow on top of normal traffic laws. Perhaps if everyone started following these laws, bikers wouldn't keep getting taken out.
You're ignorant. Stay off the roads until you've learned the rules of the road.


I do know the rules of the road, better than most it seems. Besides, what about the portion you just quoted implies that I don't know the rules of the road? All I did there was state that others do the exact same thing you suggest I do.

Ignorant is you making assumptions about my knowledge without proper background.

BTW, I got a perfect score on both the written and physical driving tests, and I am the first person to actually post the City of Madison bike laws on this thread (see my post right above this one.) No, actually i'll post it twice they're that important.

http://www.cityofmadison.com/bikeMadison/getBiking/

So, if you still think I'm ignorant and need to learn the rules of the road, please point out what rules specifically you are talking about, becuase I think I've got 'em pretty well understood.
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Re: Shorewood bike cops again

Postby seemunkyz » Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:25 pm

DCB wrote:
seemunkyz wrote:The biggest issue here is and always will be that bikers in this town don't recognize or respect the fact that they have a specific set of laws to follow on top of normal traffic laws. Perhaps if everyone started following these laws, bikers wouldn't keep getting taken out.
You're ignorant. Stay off the roads until you've learned the rules of the road.


You also 'ignorantly' never answered any of my questions from the first post about Mario Andretti, which I was asking in order to NOT make assumptions. Read the post before you respond! One line gets you going and you forget the whole point...

Anyway... I want to know:
Was there a bike lane that the car interrupted?
If not, was there a legal sidewalk for you to ride on?
Or, was there a nearby side street or bike path if it wasn't already a side street?
Was it a side street, now that Stebben brings it up.
Did you plan your route before you left, and in how much detail?
Did you have a helmet on?

Hopefully isolating these questions will also help clear up for Stebben what I was tryint to get at. Bottom line is why put yourself in that kind of danger with Mario Andretti around, when there are plenty of alternatives that are encouraged by city law?
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Re: Shorewood bike cops again

Postby DCB » Thu Jul 05, 2012 4:51 pm

seemunkyz wrote:
You also 'ignorantly' never answered any of my questions from the first post about Mario Andretti, which I was asking in order to NOT make assumptions. Read the post before you respond! One line gets you going and you forget the whole point...

Anyway... I want to know:
Was there a bike lane that the car interrupted?
If not, was there a legal sidewalk for you to ride on?
Or, was there a nearby side street or bike path if it wasn't already a side street?
Was it a side street, now that Stebben brings it up.
Did you plan your route before you left, and in how much detail?
Did you have a helmet on?

None of those questions is in any way relevant.

In general, if I'm riding legally in my lane, its none of your business whether I planned out my route with the Bicycle Federation of Wisconsin or if I'm just cruising around. And its irrelevant whether there or not there a sidewalk.

I could turn around and ask you to justify your driving : are you going shopping for groceries? why not just order take out? are you going to work? why aren't working from home instead? are you visiting a friend? why don't you just video chat? But that would be silly.

In the specific situations I was describing, I was trying to avoid passing a car on the right, when that car was clearly about to turn right. A side path or driveway would be even further to the right, hence, also in the path of the turning vehicle. And probably more of a risk, because motorists don't always look that far over.

The only fact that's relevant is that the motorist sped past me, knowing they were going to turn right just seconds later.

I don't put myself in danger. Incompetent or clueless drivers put me in danger.
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Re: Shorewood bike cops again

Postby seemunkyz » Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:20 am

DCB wrote:None of those questions is in any way relevant.

In general, if I'm riding legally in my lane, its none of your business whether I planned out my route with the Bicycle Federation of Wisconsin or if I'm just cruising around. And its irrelevant whether there or not there a sidewalk.

I could turn around and ask you to justify your driving : are you going shopping for groceries? why not just order take out? are you going to work? why aren't working from home instead? are you visiting a friend? why don't you just video chat? But that would be silly.

In the specific situations I was describing, I was trying to avoid passing a car on the right, when that car was clearly about to turn right. A side path or driveway would be even further to the right, hence, also in the path of the turning vehicle. And probably more of a risk, because motorists don't always look that far over.

The only fact that's relevant is that the motorist sped past me, knowing they were going to turn right just seconds later.

I don't put myself in danger. Incompetent or clueless drivers put me in danger.


Ok, well at least we are getting somewhere. Let me start by saying two things:

1) I am both a driver and a biker, so I'm not trying to slam bikes or say they need to get off the road.
2) I will admit what I should be saying is that both drivers and bikers have responsibilities to understand the rules for both in order to better, and more safely travel.

However, the questions I was asking are relevant to create context in the situation. There are several different variations of that situation that put blame on different people, or in some cases no one. Based on the info you gave I have to assume that as long as the motorist gave you three feet while passing and didn't change lanes within 100 feet of the intersection, they were driving legally, and did not interrupt any right of way. But, if you had a bike lane, or were already on a side street, then you did have the right of way and Mario broke the law. I didn't ask you where you were going, or ask you to justify your trip, I was trying to get insight into the situation, as well as your respect for the laws.

I'll answer those questions though.

When I drive: Yes I plan my route ahead of time, and yes I try to stay on roads with bike lanes to avoid such situations. Do I drive on the sidwalk, NO that is just crazy. Do I drive on side streets, no I try not to outside of my neighborhood because that's where I expect most bikes and pedestrians to be. Yes I wear my seatbelt, because I respect laws that are in place for public safety, and when I play the role of Mario, I do it within the law.

When I bike: I also plan my route ahead of time, and consider which rout will involve the least amount of auto traffic, and stick to roads with bike lanes. And on major roads with no bike lane, yes, I do ride on the sidewalk or find a side street, I do warn pedestrians, and I've never had any issues.

And yes I drive to the grocery store because take-out is too expensive to eat every day, and delivery puts another car on the road anyway. I drive and bike to work depending on the day, and I don't work from home because I'm not lucky enough to have such a job. And I don't video chat with my friends because, well, that would be silly considering we live in the same city.

And to keep the thread relevant: people of Shorewood, just stop at the signs and you won't get a ticket and will have no worries. You are supposed to anyway. Simple as that.
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Re: Shorewood bike cops again

Postby Ninja » Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:19 am

Nice.
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Re: Shorewood bike cops again

Postby DCB » Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:04 pm

seemunkyz wrote:And to keep the thread relevant: people of Shorewood, just stop at the signs and you won't get a ticket and will have no worries. You are supposed to anyway. Simple as that.

Technically, yes, you should stop at Stop signs. But in practice, a bicyclist can slow down and safely roll through without risk. Shorewood Hills cops should focus on the careless ones.

Just as most cars are violating state law by driving above the speed limit. But in practice, most of them are operating relatively safely. Traffic cops should focus on the careless ones.
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Re: Shorewood bike cops again

Postby seemunkyz » Mon Jul 09, 2012 1:47 pm

DCB wrote:
seemunkyz wrote:And to keep the thread relevant: people of Shorewood, just stop at the signs and you won't get a ticket and will have no worries. You are supposed to anyway. Simple as that.

Technically, yes, you should stop at Stop signs. But in practice, a bicyclist can slow down and safely roll through without risk. Shorewood Hills cops should focus on the careless ones.

Just as most cars are violating state law by driving above the speed limit. But in practice, most of them are operating relatively safely. Traffic cops should focus on the careless ones.


Just like how not all drunk drivers are as debilitated as others, so cops should focus on the one's who swerve. And how not all murderers kill bad people, so cops should just arrest the one's who kill good people. And how thiefts sometimes steal from the rich and give to the poor, so cops should only arrest thiefs who steal from the poor. (Ok, a bit exaggerated, but my point stands.)

I would hope that if an Officer saw someone breaking the law they would act, not say, "Oh, they were relatively safe enough." The signs and laws are there for a reason and are mutually agreed upon. If you break them you are being careless and disrespectful, and deserve punishment. It doesn't take much for that one moment of "relatively safe and careful" to become "where did that guy come from?"
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Re: Shorewood bike cops again

Postby jman111 » Mon Jul 09, 2012 2:02 pm

seemunkyz wrote:I would hope that if an Officer saw someone breaking the law they would act, not say, "Oh, they were relatively safe enough."

I think there is a profound difference between a cop that observes and acts on a statutorily illegal act while routinely patrolling and a cop that observes and acts on a statutorily illegal act while being specifically assigned to watch for that (subjectively relatively harmless) act.

Limited resources should be wisely utilized.
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Re: Shorewood bike cops again

Postby CTraveler » Tue Jul 10, 2012 1:07 pm

A couple of points about everything that has been debated thus far.

A stop is a stop is a stop. If you're not going to legally follow it, then you have the right to take that risk. But don't complain if you get caught. You knew what you were doing. Furthermore, many cyclists like to get away with the logic that "it counts as a stop if your foot touches the ground." No. It's a legal stop when the velocity of your tire = 0 mph. I see many people who put their foot on the ground, but their bike it still moving 5-10 mph. That's not a stop. It's a roll. We love to complain when we see cars do it, yet some think it's acceptable if you're on two weeks. I'd be happier if I get to keep the $100 in a potential ticket. I'm also someone who refuses to drive 1 mph over a speed limit for the same reason.

Everytime I'm riding, and I'm stopped at a stop sign or stop light, and someone comes up and just keeps on biking by me, I always want to yell something at them. I never know what to say, nor how to say it without coming off like a complete jerk, so I bite my tongue. Remember the guy a couple years ago who told another cyclist at night to "get a light"... the lightless guy followed him home and beat him up pretty bad.

As to "Mario Andretti's" point about even if a cyclist has a legal right to be on a road, wouldn't it be wise if cyclists weren't so righetous (and just out of courtesy and common sense) and found an alternate road, sidelwalk, path instead... I agree, to a point.

A quick example, as someone who lives on the far SW side of Madison. The nearest bike pathy to me is a mile away. I have to bike from my home to that bikepath somehow. Unless we build bike paths from every conveivable point A to every conveivable point B, a bicyclist will need to be on a road with cars at some point. Also, in a more suburban setting like where I live, the roads are far from straight lines, so it's not like you can always say there's a less-traveled, safer, parallel road to bike on a block away. On the southwest/far west side, my north-south options for any length are Highway M, Highpoint, Gammon, and Whitney, with no other clear alternate street, and no bike path that runs parallel. High Point tends to be the least traveled of those, so I use that the most... though it's also the hilliest option of those, which means you can catch a car by surprise.

As for sidewalks, they're less than ideal to be biking in even when it's legal to do so. (Side note... In Monona, it's illegal to bike on a sidewalk at all. How many cyclists know the various rules from one municipality to another. Might as well not chance it and just stick to riding in the street). I used to think the sidewalk on Odana was safer when I would bike between Whitney and Gammon. Except with all the stores alone there, there are many, many, many commercial driveways. And when cars pull in and out of those driveways, they're paying attention to traffic on the road, not on the sidewalk. This also causes a lot of awkward situations where a driver is waiting to pull out, so they're stopped across the sidewalk... making a cyclist choose to go around in front of him, or behind him. Play those scenes out 20 times in a simple 1 mile section, and you realize quickly it's a whole lot easier just to be on the street.
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