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Paterno: Why he should coach forever

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Re: Paterno: Why he should coach forever

Postby Igor » Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:45 am

Huckleby wrote: The football world is in mass denial of the role that football worship at Penn State played in this tragedy. They want to just restart the wild circus and act like nothing happened.


I haven't read through the entire 170 page report yet. I have been through a bunch of it. It is important to note that the people that were most involved in it were not interviewed, due to their upcoming trials. I think that once their trials are complete, it will be a lot easier to place blame.

Many people failed in this case, to varying degrees:

- The janitor
- The grad assistant
- The grad assistant's father and doctor, who gave him advice
- Paterno
- Protective Services, who were involved in one of the situations but did not act.
- Leaders of the Second mile charitable foundation
- The AD
- The head of the university police
- The university president

I think Paterno is getting an unfair share of the blame. He is not blameless, but (early) evidence seem to indicate that the last three listed were driving the universities actions to at least the same extent. That is why I am assuming 20 - 25% for now.

I think he is getting most of the blame because:

- He is the only well-known name involved
- The ridiculous deification of him by the people in State College
- His insistence at remaining coach until he broke all possible longevity and win records
- His willingness to challenge his superiors when they suggested he retire. The leaders' desire to avoid bad PR in that situation pretty closely parallels what they did in this case.

Again, I am not excusing his role in this. But to assign the full blame on him is unfair. I don't hear calls to shut down all athletics, the university police, or university administration despite the involvement of their leaders.
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Re: Paterno: Why he should coach forever

Postby Huckleby » Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:11 pm

The point is not to blame individuals. And I don't see any need to punish anybody beyond the criminals.

The idea of a suspension is to reflect on what the hell happened and why. It is for EVERYBODY obsessed with college football, although especially Penn State. To fill that stadium with 110,000 u-rah-rahers next fall is inappropriate. The football community has NOT adequately faced what happened. They are standing-by the statue of a guy who lied to a grand jury about the most heinous of crimes! JoePa was the power of that place, what he says goes, as evidenced by the emails. JoePa had the responsibility to intercede to protect children, and he failed. In fact, it appears he drove the various cover-ups.

There is talk about "a handful of bad men" among football world deniers. Bullshit. It wasn't a few bad men, millions of people need to step back and reprioritize. The university has to defocus somewhat on football.

I am a big football fan. I want football to come back strong. I just want a learned lesson, not sweeping under the rug and "looking forward." The fucking NCAA punishes teams, including mostly innocent parties, for infractions like selling jerseys, or shoe discounts at the Shoe Box. The Penn State scandal was a shocking level of corruption and imorality.

A year suspension is not going to kill any college athlete's career, they can transfer if it is a major problem to take a redshirt year.
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Re: Paterno: Why he should coach forever

Postby Igor » Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:03 pm

Huckleby wrote:JoePa was the power of that place, what he says goes, as evidenced by the emails. JoePa had the responsibility to intercede to protect children, and he failed. In fact, it appears he drove the various cover-ups.


I'm not sure I buy that yet - but I will suspect we will find out more during the upcoming trials.
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Re: Paterno: Why he should coach forever

Postby bleurose » Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:32 pm

I read some (actually, most of them) comments on another board when the Freeh report was released and at least on that forum, people were almost universally appalled/aghast/disgusted by the findings. I skimmed through some of the report sections myself and it really was pretty bad. I have to agree with one poster on that other board though and his/her comment was that the Paterno family should just be very quiet and keep themselves out of the limelight. They are absolutely doing themselves and Joe's memory - which is already tattered beyond repair in my book - no good by continuing to say that this wasn't his responsibility and that he did what he needed to do. It seems pretty clear just from the quick reads of different sections that I did that Joe was pretty much driving this bus even if he was aided and abetted by the president, the AD and the VP for finance.

All of these adults failed those kids and Joe bears full responsibility for making it possible for Sandusky to have access to kids for another 14 years after it was clear that he knew what Sandusky was like. I really hope there is a way to get back all the money & benefits that UP has paid to Paterno and that they can stop any further payments to his family & estate.
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Re: Paterno: Why he should coach forever

Postby Henry Vilas » Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:35 pm

No way that PSU can get any of the money back from Sandusky or the Paterno estate. A contract is a contract.
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Re: Paterno: Why he should coach forever

Postby Huckleby » Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:26 pm

If you have any interest in the Penn State scandal, you have to check out this excellent debate:

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:8170187
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Re: Paterno: Why he should coach forever

Postby Igor » Mon Jul 16, 2012 7:59 pm

bleurose wrote:the Paterno family should just be very quiet and keep themselves out of the limelight. They are absolutely doing themselves and Joe's memory - which is already tattered beyond repair in my book - no good by continuing to say that this wasn't his responsibility and that he did what he needed to do. It seems pretty clear just from the quick reads of different sections that I did that Joe was pretty much driving this bus even if he was aided and abetted by the president, the AD and the VP for finance.


Regardless of if Paterno is 5% or 75% to blame, I agree about his family just being quiet. In particular, you may be able to mention the good things he did - *maybe* 40 or 50 years from now. Bringing up stuff like that now just makes them look clueless and insensitive.

Consider Woody Hayes - a single, much less serious incident, has defined his career for many people.
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Re: Paterno: Why he should coach forever

Postby bdog » Mon Jul 16, 2012 8:50 pm

Igor wrote:
Consider Woody Hayes - a single, much less serious incident, has defined his career for many people.

(raises hand)

bdog wrote:More like Woody Hayes' penalty - when you think of him you remember him slugging an opposing player.

When people think of Paterno they will think of this scandal.
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Re: Paterno: Why he should coach forever

Postby Igor » Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:51 pm

bdog wrote:
Igor wrote:
Consider Woody Hayes - a single, much less serious incident, has defined his career for many people.

(raises hand)

bdog wrote:More like Woody Hayes' penalty - when you think of him you remember him slugging an opposing player.

When people think of Paterno they will think of this scandal.


Very well - I have discussed this in two locations, and forgot who posted what where.

I guess it isn't that surprising to see people that are still staunch supporters of Paterno. There is not (and due to his aversion to e-mail, may never be) an absolute, 100% proof that he knew what was going on. Even Roman Polanski still has supporters, and he actually committed the rape himself.
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Re: Paterno: Why he should coach forever

Postby bdog » Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:38 am

Igor, I was just saying I agree with you. Nice to know someone else sees the parallel between these 2 situations.

This would be a fascinating psychological study to see how Penn State fans, and to a lesser extent, college football fans in general are reacting to this. My 2 cents - it's a big ego thing for many people. College football is one of the things that define them as a person. They can hardly admit it's all bullshit because then a big part of themselves becomes bullshit.
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Re: Paterno: Why he should coach forever

Postby Igor » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:59 am

bdog wrote: My 2 cents - it's a big ego thing for many people. College football is one of the things that define them as a person. They can hardly admit it's all bullshit because then a big part of themselves becomes bullshit.


Agreed - I have been a Badger fan since the 70's, but I have never had a bad day or gotten in an argument just because they lost a game.

I suppose there are parallels In things like music and politics, where the intense fandom becomes a defining charicteristic. Among the younger set, I suppose the willful nerdery of the various "con" attendees probably is an equivalent as well.
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Re: Paterno: Why he should coach forever

Postby Huckleby » Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:13 am

Igor wrote: Regardless of if Paterno is 5% or 75% to blame, I agree about his family just being quiet.

Paterno is 100% responsible.

I realize this is a sematics disagreement, but everybody connected is responsible exactly for how they conducted themselves. There is not a responsibility pie to be neatly divided into a 1000 negligible slices. Paterno's failure was complete. HE had every opportunity and power to correct the situation, and he chose an alternative path, to look away. There is strong evidence from email remark that he was the pivatol force that extended coverup at a key juncture. At any rate, the coverup went on for 14 years, we are not talking about a moment of weakness.

I might give McQueery and the janitor who observed suspicious behavior 50% responsibility. I cut them some slack because they acted by reporting the crime. But 50% is not a passing grade.
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Re: Paterno: Why he should coach forever

Postby Huckleby » Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:53 pm

Turn JoPa's statue around so he can look the other way.
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Re: Paterno: Why he should coach forever

Postby Detritus » Thu Jul 19, 2012 11:27 pm

Two other potential outcomes. One is that the Chronicle of Higher Education says the Big Ten is considering kicking Penn State out:

Jim Delaney Wants the Power to Fire Coaches

The other is the US Department of Education, which is investigating Penn State for systematic violations of the Clery Act (governing the reporting of crimes), which could result in the loss of the university's "federal aid including grants, loans and work-study payments." In other words, they--which is to say all Penn State students--could lose all Federal and Federally guaranteed student support. Here's the Reuters report:

Penn State could incur steep penalty in probe of unreported crime
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Re: Paterno: Why he should coach forever

Postby Detritus » Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:26 am

The statue is gone, and the NCAA will announce penalties on Monday.
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