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"Somebody else did that"

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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby Bludgeon » Fri Jul 27, 2012 8:42 am

"I know what somebody else did last summer..."

Image
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby johnfajardohenry » Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:02 am

fisticuffs wrote:And benefited from the GI bill no doubt. You serve, we help pay for college. Did you also create the VA? I'm not saying you don't deserve it, you deserve more.


VA is not a gift. It is not educational welfare like student loans, Pell grants and so on (whether or not those are a good thing)

VA benefits, including educational benefits, are a part of the pay package for military.

Many companies have educational benefits as part of their compensation package. So does the military. Tuition assistance for those on active duty. VA for those who got out.


John Henry
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby fisticuffs » Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:04 am

VA benefits, including educational benefits, are a part of the pay package for military.


But teacher pensions and health care are not? It's all tax dollars right?
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby johnfajardohenry » Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:06 am

BTW: Anyone see what Amazon is doing? They are going to fund employee studies and they are going to fund then whether or not the field is useful to their job at Amazon. But they are only going to fund studies in what they consider useful fields with a good chance of finding work.

I like the concept but see a couple issues:

1) There is a cap on how much and it is not that high. ISTR $2,000/yr or so. Still every little bit helps.

2) Education that directly helps with your current employment is tax deductible. Education unrelated to your current job is not. Amazon can pay it and it is a legitimate expense for them. A shipping clerk studying nursing would have to count it as income and pay taxes on it.

That might hurt when people get the tax bill.

3) There may be problems with the Jessie Jacksons and Al Sharptons of the country. They will make the argument that because blacks do not go into the programs funded at the same rate as whites, the program is racially discriminatory under the "disparate impact" doctrine. Then they will extort a bunch of money from Amazon and go on to their next pigeon.

Still, I think Amazon is on the right track here. Especially in being selective about the kinds of studies they will pay for.

John Henry
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby wack wack » Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:08 am

I invite everyone who thinks they did it all themselves to disavow themselves of any and all police and fire protection. See how long you keep what you think you did.
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby johnfajardohenry » Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:10 am

fisticuffs wrote:
VA benefits, including educational benefits, are a part of the pay package for military.


But teacher pensions and health care are not? It's all tax dollars right?


I am missing something here.

Of course teacher pensions and health care are (or can be) part of the pay package. Pretty much anything can be part of anyone's compensation package.

What point are you trying to make?

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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby fisticuffs » Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:12 am

What point are you trying to make?


You must have missed the conservative position on public employee compensation discussion over the past 20 months. I agree it's part of the compensation package, funded by public tax dollars in a public job that didn't manifest itself into existence out of any individuals hard work.
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby johnfajardohenry » Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:18 am

fisticuffs wrote:
But teacher pensions and health care are not? It's all tax dollars right?


Speaking of this, a lot of people seem to miss the fact that pensions and health care are all part of the total pay package.

Let's take a hypothetical person making $10/hr plus health care.

Let us say that in 2011 they made $10 and the employer paid $10,000 for the health care.

Then, in 2012, they still made $10/hr but the employer had to pay $12,000 for health care.

Some, including me, would say that the employee got a $1/hr raise in 2012. Others would say that they didn't.

What say you all here?

(I ignored tax impacts on both sides to keep the math simple)
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby johnfajardohenry » Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:22 am

fisticuffs wrote:
What point are you trying to make?


You must have missed the conservative position on public employee compensation discussion over the past 20 months. I agree it's part of the compensation package, funded by public tax dollars in a public job that didn't manifest itself into existence out of any individuals hard work.


I guess I did.

I don't remember seeing anyone saying that pensions and healthcare were not a legitimate part of the compensation package.

The discussion I remember all centered around how large the total compensation package, including healthcare and pensions, should be.

Some thought it was excessive.

FWIW: While I have no problem with employers paying healthcare, I think the single biggest reason for the mess in how we pay for healthcare is the way our tax code treats it.

Health care costs should best be paid for by the individual. If paid for by employer they should be taxed as income to the individual.

Just like any other benefit an employer provides.

John Henry
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby O.J. » Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:29 am

Now you want the government to take more of our money at gunpoint?
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby jman111 » Fri Jul 27, 2012 10:31 am

Only if you actually WORK for it.
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby jonnygothispen » Fri Jul 27, 2012 11:20 am

johnfajardohenry wrote:
fisticuffs wrote:And benefited from the GI bill no doubt. You serve, we help pay for college. Did you also create the VA? I'm not saying you don't deserve it, you deserve more.


VA is not a gift. It is not educational welfare like student loans, Pell grants and so on (whether or not those are a good thing)

VA benefits, including educational benefits, are a part of the pay package for military.

Many companies have educational benefits as part of their compensation package. So does the military. Tuition assistance for those on active duty. VA for those who got out.


John Henry
I would make the same argument for the health package and collective bargaining agreements the state made with public employees...
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby rabble » Fri Jul 27, 2012 12:41 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:Speaking of this, a lot of people seem to miss the fact that pensions and health care are all part of the total pay package.

Wow.

You mean the ones who've been living under a rock for the last couple years while the Republicans have been crying their hearts out about those damn pensions and the elitist health care? Those people?

Yeah, they miss quite a few facts, actually.
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby dave esmond » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:26 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:Let's take a hypothetical person making $10/hr plus health care.

Let us say that in 2011 they made $10 and the employer paid $10,000 for the health care.

Then, in 2012, they still made $10/hr but the employer had to pay $12,000 for health care.

Some, including me, would say that the employee got a $1/hr raise in 2012. Others would say that they didn't.


I'd say they didn't. Only if the wage portion of their compensation package went up would I say they got a raise.

Obviously there's some people who can convince themselves that someone taking home the same amount of money every week got a raise, But I'm not one of em.

If the company found a cheaper health care plan I wouldn't say the worker took a pay hit either.
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Re: "Somebody else did that"

Postby Stebben84 » Fri Jul 27, 2012 1:40 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:Health care costs should best be paid for by the individual. If paid for by employer they should be taxed as income to the individual.

Just like any other benefit an employer provides.


And if you do that, the people who would be hurt most are the middle class.

johnfajardohenry wrote:Let us say that in 2011 they made $10 and the employer paid $10,000 for the health care.

Then, in 2012, they still made $10/hr but the employer had to pay $12,000 for health care.

Some, including me, would say that the employee got a $1/hr raise in 2012. Others would say that they didn't.


Did their premiums go up? Did their co-pay go up? Most of the time when this happens, the employer passes the increase off to the employee.
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