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Sikh temple shooting

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Re: Sikh temple shooting

Postby Dangerousman » Tue Aug 07, 2012 6:52 pm

snoqueen wrote:
Note to Snoqueen. I have never claimed that guns are the answer to society's problems. I have repeatedly maintained throughout my time writing on the Daily Page that the answer to the problems include improved economic conditions, a vigorous educational system, a more effective judicial system, a strong mental health program, and people caring about each other and not ignoring warning signs in family members and close friends.

In regards to crime, guns are only a possible last-resort solution, regrettably, to the immediate problems faced by individuals in certain unfortunate situations that perhaps would not occur with such frequency if there were improvements in the areas listed above. I repeat, the problems faced by individuals, not society as a whole.

I would appreciate you not continuing to present a distorted caricature of my opinions.


I didn't mean to. Incomplete, maybe, but not distorted. I can agree a whole lot of other social changes are part of the solution, and it's helpful to note individual solutions are not societal solutions until some critical mass is reached, and I don't think it's been reached here. I hope we don't do anything to nudge it closer to the line, any of us.

When I read the bio of the Milwaukee shooter, I saw that he'd had a really sad life with a lot of rejection, family stuff, other grief from start to finish. A lot of people would wind up with mental health problems coming from a background like that. Maybe mental health problems isn't the right term and I should say a lot of anger, sadness, and hate. I have no idea how anyone could help give an individual like that something positive to live for. For some, religion is an answer. It's interesting to note he decided to shoot up the meeting place of a religion that seems to have a lot of internal strength and a strong community: exactly what he himself was missing.


I haven't read that much about his background, but once I heard "white supremacist" "neo Nazi" and terms like that I figured I knew about as much as I cared to know about him. I agree that only something fundamentally messed up on a number of levels produces people like that. I suppose in it's own way the subculture of hate groups fulfills the need for a "community" that you mention.

Yes, guns may--- only may-- be the last resort to solve individual problems. If societal problems are best solved with gun then society has really reached a wretched point. Apparently the societal problems of Syria have reached the point where they're solved by guns. We're a long way from that and hopefully will always remain so.

An incomplete characterization of my views is in itself a distorted view. Just my two cents.
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Re: Sikh temple shooting

Postby snoqueen » Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:19 pm

http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/shoo ... 23946.html

That goes to Wade Page's Milw Journal-Sentinel bio, so I'm not linking to some creepy fringe site. The last couple decades of his life were more or less a slow-motion train wreck. Stuff like that happens to people all the time and they don't go out and commit mass murder so I'm not making excuses for the guy, but at the same time I felt a little sorry for him. Only a little, but he was a human being.
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Re: Sikh temple shooting

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:39 pm

Dangerousman wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:
Dangerousman wrote: What do you have against choice?

Says the guy who thinks the choice should include chemical, biological and even nuclear weaponry.

Says the guy who can't find where I ever said that. But I do recall saying it's a moot point since you won't be getting a nuke either way.

Quit speaking so obstrusely. Do you think that citizens (like you) have the constitutional right to possess nuclear, biological and chemical weaponry? Please don't quibble when you asnwer.
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Re: Sikh temple shooting

Postby fennel » Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:58 pm

FWIW, I think that's abstrusely – not that D-mange could fathom the difference.

Dear me, is that an ad-trollinem response?
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Re: Sikh temple shooting

Postby Shorty » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:10 pm

Igor wrote:
narcoleptish wrote:Is there a law that says every asshole from Wisconsin has to look like this?

Image


Mark Pocan says hi.

That could be Kelda's new ad.
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Re: Sikh temple shooting

Postby Dangerousman » Tue Aug 07, 2012 10:59 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Quit speaking so obstrusely. Do you think that citizens (like you) have the constitutional right to possess nuclear, biological and chemical weaponry? Please don't quibble when you asnwer.


I've already answered the question and clearly I might add. I said I don't know, and I don't think it matters since there's no practical difference to anyone whether the answer is yes or no.

But I can think of one argument against them being constitutionally protected and one argument in favor. Although you need to define chemical weaponry a little better. A nuke is a nuke regardless of size and biological weapons exist in theory more than in reality.

But chemical weapons exist and encompass a wide range of substances. Pepper spray? Hell yeah, protected under the Constitution IMO. Chlorine? It's legal to own it, so are a lot of other chemical agents used in chemical warfare. Nerve agents? Getting trickier there. I'd have to consider each agent separately against my argument to decide.
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Re: Sikh temple shooting

Postby Dangerousman » Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:06 pm

fennel wrote:Dear me, is that an ad-trollinem response?


No, it's not clever enough, merely stupid.
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Re: Sikh temple shooting

Postby O.J. » Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:56 am

Dangerousman wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:
Dangerousman wrote: What do you have against choice?

Says the guy who thinks the choice should include chemical, biological and even nuclear weaponry.


Says the guy who can't find where I ever said that. But I do recall saying it's a moot point since you won't be getting a nuke either way.


This is a moot point, yet the Taliban taking control of the United States is entirely plausible? I think you've watched Red Dawn a few thousand too many times, Goldmember.
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Re: Sikh temple shooting

Postby Dangerousman » Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:09 pm

O.J. wrote:
This is a moot point, yet the Taliban taking control of the United States is entirely plausible? I think you've watched Red Dawn a few thousand too many times, Goldmember.


You took it too literally. I meant a "Taliban-like" group. But thanks for playing, we have some lovely parting gifts for you.
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Re: Sikh temple shooting

Postby O.J. » Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:12 pm

Image
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Re: Sikh temple shooting

Postby Dangerousman » Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:21 pm

OJ, if you don't think we have any Taliban-like religious nut groups here in the USA then I have two words for you: Pat Robertson
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Re: Sikh temple shooting

Postby O.J. » Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:28 pm

Dangerousman wrote:OJ, if you don't think we have any Taliban-like religious nut groups here in the USA then I have two words for you: Pat Robertson


I didn't say they didn't exist. I'm saying that the chances of them TAKING CONTROL of the United States are far slimmer than the odds of a person with means(in case you haven't noticed, we have quite a few rich people in this country) from acquiring a nuclear weapon, if those were made legal(which you seemingly think is an inalienable right).
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Re: Sikh temple shooting

Postby Madsci » Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:32 pm

O.J. wrote:Image


Too bad it wasn't a Chick Fil A take over instead of McDonald's !
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Re: Sikh temple shooting

Postby Dangerousman » Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:11 pm

O.J. wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:OJ, if you don't think we have any Taliban-like religious nut groups here in the USA then I have two words for you: Pat Robertson


I didn't say they didn't exist. I'm saying that the chances of them TAKING CONTROL of the United States are far slimmer than the odds of a person with means(in case you haven't noticed, we have quite a few rich people in this country) from acquiring a nuclear weapon, if those were made legal(which you seemingly think is an inalienable right).


One would hope the chances are that slim, but in the early 1920's the Nazi Party in Germany was getting around 2 or 3% of the vote at the polls. Hitler was in power a decade later. In 1903 the Bolsheviks were a small faction of one political party, and by 1917 the secret police had shut down all newspapers critical of the government and launched a terror campaign against anyone who wasn't supportive of the party. Mussolini's fascist party got some changes in the Italian election laws which they used to their advantage to win controversial elections. Within a year or two Mussolini dropped any attempt to appear democratic and established a dictatorship. Mao's communist party was small in the 1920's but a couple of decades later they were rounding up well-to-do peasants and intellectuals, taking away their land, and having them beaten to death. It's nice that you believe this country is somehow magically immune from despotism. But that is an act of faith I cannot share with you-- particularly in this increasingly polarized political climate.
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Re: Sikh temple shooting

Postby jonnygothispen » Wed Aug 08, 2012 7:13 pm

Dangerousman wrote:
One would hope the chances are that slim, but in the early 1920's the Nazi Party in Germany was getting around 2 or 3% of the vote at the polls. Hitler was in power a decade later.
similar to the Tea Party's rise today...

Dangerousman wrote:In 1903 the Bolsheviks were a small faction of one political party, and by 1917 the secret police had shut down all newspapers critical of the government and launched a terror campaign against anyone who wasn't supportive of the party.
Today, corporate media willingly does something very similar by the issues they choose to report or ignore, or lie about, as WSJ did throughout the recall. Not small lies either.

Dangerousman wrote:Mussolini's fascist party got some changes in the Italian election laws which they used to their advantage to win controversial elections. Within a year or two Mussolini dropped any attempt to appear democratic and established a dictatorship.
eerily similar to the voter suppression laws we're seeing nation wide, coupled with electronic election theft.
Dangerousman wrote:Mao's communist party was small in the 1920's but a couple of decades later they were rounding up well-to-do peasants and intellectuals, taking away their land, and having them beaten to death. It's nice that you believe this country is somehow magically immune from despotism. But that is an act of faith I cannot share with you-- particularly in this increasingly polarized political climate.
We're certainly not immune. Were living it right now. They've been rounding up the labor movement for at least the last 30 years, taking away their buying power, and beating them to death with catch phrases designed to keep the wealth flowing to the top. Can we call that communism too, or is that a one way street only?
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