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Romney y el voto hispano

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Romney y el voto hispano

Postby bdog » Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:47 pm

Romney, GOP try for greater share of Hispanic votes

"I find it very difficult to understand why it is that we don't have more Hispanics voting for Republicans," said MaGowan, 49, a Bolivia native who is volunteering for the campaign of presumptive GOP nominee Mitt Romney. "Our values are so similar to the values of traditional families in Latin America."


Can any Hispanics here attest to this?
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Re: Romney y el voto hispano

Postby Shorty » Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:50 pm

No me gusto Mitt. El es mal. Mi Espanol is mal, tambien.
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Re: Romney y el voto hispano

Postby pjbogart » Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:29 pm

I find the Republican "Hispanic problem" downright hilarious, mostly because it's a self-inflicted wound. Ok, first off, you don't pander for votes by attacking the people who you want to vote for you. Yeah, the "speak English or die" folks are a valuable constituency, but they're a bunch of fucking retarded tools and they're going to vote for you whether you proclaim your hatred of Mexicans or not. Was your hatred of Blacks not satisfying enough? Did you have to supplement your bigotry with a few other groups like Hispanics, homosexuals and Muslims? Face it, if you get up on the podium and say, "I really fucking hate Black people," you'll get all the Mexican haters too without having to alienate the Mexicans.

Hispanics tend to be pretty hard working folks, very family oriented, Roman Catholic, conservative, anti-abortion, anti-gay, pull yourself up by your bootstraps kinda folks. So why do Republicans put so much time and energy into scapegoating them? These people should be dyed-in-the-wool Republicans, yet you can't help yourself in trying to blame them for every economic woe since the Great Depression. WTF?
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Re: Romney y el voto hispano

Postby snoqueen » Thu Aug 16, 2012 11:47 pm

Plus could you please lay off stupidness like trying to send kids home to Mexico where they haven't lived since they were a year old, sending working parents back to Mexico but letting their born-here children stay, building walls along the border and patrolling them with armed bands of vigilantes and generally treating the Mexican border like the line between East Germany and West Germany during the cold war, and encouraging police to regard anybody who even "looks" Mexican as a criminal?

That sure picks up the votes. So does using "illegals" as a collective name for a nationality.

Incidentally, I haven't found Mexican people around here to be anti-gay. In fact, one of the first people I ever knowingly met who was a transsexual was Mexican and was introduced to me by her Mexican friends. Maybe there are regional or ethnic differences with this one.
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Re: Romney y el voto hispano

Postby johnfajardohenry » Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:54 am

bdog wrote:[Can any Hispanics here attest to this?


BDog,

I have some thoughts on this but doesn't a lot of this depend on the meaning of Hispanic? Your thread, could you please define what you mean by the word?

Do you mean Spanish speaking (as a primary language)? That let's out virtually all 3rd generation immigrants and many 2nd generation.

Perhaps you mean people who come from primarily Spanish speaking countries. That eliminates Puerto Ricans. Not so much today but 50 years ago Argentina would have had a hard time qualifying.

Do you mean Spanish sounding surnames? What about the Hanzliks, Stubbens, O'Niells, Maldonados (Hispanicized McDonald). Was Bernardo O'Higgins Hispanic? Or Henry? Are my son and daughter Hispanic under your definition? My granddaughter/grandson?

Conversely, if I change my name to "Juan Roberto Enrique" do I become Hispanic? (Answer: There was an affirmative action case in Maryland in the 80s where that happened and the courts ruled that since it was based on surname, when John Smith changed his name to Jose Sanchez he got affirmative action hiring points for a county job)

I've lived in Puerto Rico for 42 years and in my daily life I probably speak more Spanish than English. I write Spanish well enough that I sometimes write equipment manuals and instructions in Spanish. Am I Hispanic?

Or do you mean of original Spanish (as in Spain, the Canary Islands etc)?

What about Brazilian immigrants? Are they Hispanic? (Depends on which govt department is defining)

Or last country they lived in before the US?
And so on.

Also, are you talking about Hispanic immigrants and their children or Native Hispanics such as Puerto Ricans?

And if Puerto Ricans, Puerto Ricans born, raised, and primarily living in Puerto Rico or people born and living in the upper 50 whose parents or grandparents came from PR?

How about Haitians? Are they perhaps honorary Hispanics? They frequently speak Spanish though French is their primary native language. Their ancestry is very similar to that of Domicans with whom they share Hispaniola.

Some guidance please. Depending on which definition(s) you want to use, the answers could be considerably different. I'll hold off on my comments until you can define what you are talking about.

John Henry
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Re: Romney y el voto hispano

Postby johnfajardohenry » Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:57 am

snoqueen wrote:sending working parents back to Mexico but letting their born-here children stay,


Why "born-here"? Seems a clumsy construction.

Why not just say "citizen"? Cleaner, simpler, and 100% accurate.

John Henry
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Re: Romney y el voto hispano

Postby snoqueen » Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:10 am

Born-here shows how they got to be citizens, which was the point of what I was saying. Birthright, not naturalized. Different personal narrative.

Why did you find that a concern?
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Re: Romney y el voto hispano

Postby johnfajardohenry » Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:24 am

snoqueen wrote:Born-here shows how they got to be citizens, which was the point of what I was saying. Birthright, not naturalized. Different personal narrative.

Why did you find that a concern?


Not really a concern. I thought you might be making some point I was missing. Thanks for clarifying. Mainly just sounded a bit clumsy.

And in the US, people pretty much are Hispanic, Latino, both, neither, or something else by their own preference. There's no legal test, genetic test, geneolgical test, linguistic test, cultural test, or anything else. When in doubt, we ask.


Fair enough. In general, I find the term Hispanic to be more confusing than clarifying. As do most Puerto Ricans. Most Puerto Ricans prefer to be identified as Puerto Rican rather than Hispanic. We/they have little in common other than language with Cubans and Mexicans, the other 2 main Hispanic groups in the US.

And not even that much with language, especially with Mexicans. To paraphrase Churchill, Mexicans and Puerto Ricans are separated by a common language. :)

John Henry
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Re: Romney y el voto hispano

Postby johnfajardohenry » Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:32 am

snoqueen wrote:Born-here shows how they got to be citizens, which was the point of what I was saying. Birthright, not naturalized. Different personal narrative.


Perhaps off topic but sort of like Obama and McCain, no?

One born here and a 14th Amendment citizen. The other born outside the US and a statutory/naturalized citizen.

John Henry
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Re: Romney y el voto hispano

Postby bdog » Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:40 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:
bdog wrote:[Can any Hispanics here attest to this?


BDog,

I have some thoughts on this but doesn't a lot of this depend on the meaning of Hispanic? Your thread, could you please define what you mean by the word?

Do you mean Spanish speaking (as a primary language)? That let's out virtually all 3rd generation immigrants and many 2nd generation.

Perhaps you mean people who come from primarily Spanish speaking countries. That eliminates Puerto Ricans. Not so much today but 50 years ago Argentina would have had a hard time qualifying.

Do you mean Spanish sounding surnames? What about the Hanzliks, Stubbens, O'Niells, Maldonados (Hispanicized McDonald). Was Bernardo O'Higgins Hispanic? Or Henry? Are my son and daughter Hispanic under your definition? My granddaughter/grandson?

Conversely, if I change my name to "Juan Roberto Enrique" do I become Hispanic? (Answer: There was an affirmative action case in Maryland in the 80s where that happened and the courts ruled that since it was based on surname, when John Smith changed his name to Jose Sanchez he got affirmative action hiring points for a county job)

I've lived in Puerto Rico for 42 years and in my daily life I probably speak more Spanish than English. I write Spanish well enough that I sometimes write equipment manuals and instructions in Spanish. Am I Hispanic?

Or do you mean of original Spanish (as in Spain, the Canary Islands etc)?

What about Brazilian immigrants? Are they Hispanic? (Depends on which govt department is defining)

Or last country they lived in before the US?
And so on.

Also, are you talking about Hispanic immigrants and their children or Native Hispanics such as Puerto Ricans?

And if Puerto Ricans, Puerto Ricans born, raised, and primarily living in Puerto Rico or people born and living in the upper 50 whose parents or grandparents came from PR?

How about Haitians? Are they perhaps honorary Hispanics? They frequently speak Spanish though French is their primary native language. Their ancestry is very similar to that of Domicans with whom they share Hispaniola.

Some guidance please. Depending on which definition(s) you want to use, the answers could be considerably different. I'll hold off on my comments until you can define what you are talking about.

John Henry


Yes, all of the above.
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Re: Romney y el voto hispano

Postby Dairylander » Fri Aug 17, 2012 5:24 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:blah, blah, blah, blah

"Hispanic" is a well-established word and a well-established voting demographic.
For you to get all anal about the semantics is annoying and off-topic.

(Personally, I prefer Latino, but you'll never hear me make a stink about it. All the documents and forms already say Hispanic, so it's ridiculous to worry about it.)
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Re: Romney y el voto hispano

Postby hi, i'm new here » Fri Aug 17, 2012 8:43 pm

Plus could you please lay off stupidness like trying to send kids home to Mexico where they haven't lived since they were a year old, sending working parents back to Mexico but letting their born-here children stay"


Good suggestion, but sadly the Obama administration has already deported more folks in his 3.5 years than Bush did in his 8 years. Both parties are doing this, but the hateful rhetoric is certainly coming mostly from the republicans.
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Re: Romney y el voto hispano

Postby pjbogart » Fri Aug 17, 2012 11:54 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:Some guidance please. Depending on which definition(s) you want to use, the answers could be considerably different. I'll hold off on my comments until you can define what you are talking about.


John, you have an annoying habit of refusing to use words in their common usage. Your feigned confusion is a thinly veiled attempt to establish some sort of advantage by speaking from a position of authority. I'm not sure if any lurkers have ceded this position to you but I've yet to see a regular poster praise you for your forays into trivia and semantics.

Pointing out that there are differences among Hispanics is like telling me that there are differences among White people. Thanks for the info, bro.

Do you recognize that many conservatives scapegoat Hispanics, particularly Mexicans, for political gain? If you don't, you may be living on a different planet.

The question: Why do they do this? Is the calculation that the xenophobe vote is stronger than the immigrant vote? Do they truly believe that "illegals" are ruining our economy? Are they afraid of changing demographics? Do they believe that Hispanics are inherently inferior to Caucasians? All of the above? Some of the above? Depends on the xenophobe?

It's a pretty straight-forward question. Why do Republicans tend to alienate an increasingly powerful voting bloc? On the flip side of that coin (and please don't tell me about some Ecuadoran coin that's actually a cube), Hispanics tend to support Democrats. Why?
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Re: Romney y el voto hispano

Postby bdog » Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:47 am

Re: JH's attempt to pin down the meaning of Hispanic, here is an interesting comment from Jeb Bush (from a thread Sno created a while ago):

First, we need to recognize this is not a monochromatic community but, rather, a deeply diverse one. Hispanics in this country include Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Cubans and many others. Some came here 50 years ago to make a better life; others came last year. Some have lots of education, some have none. The traditional Republican emphasis on the importance of the individual has never been more relevant.


Bush's op-ed: Four ways Republicans can win Hispanics back

Bush also links to this study which suggests that Marco Rubio (who?) would not have helped the Romney ticket.
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Re: Romney y el voto hispano

Postby johnfajardohenry » Sat Aug 18, 2012 2:12 pm

Dairylander wrote:"Hispanic" is a well-established word and a well-established voting demographic.
For you to get all anal about the semantics is annoying and off-topic.


Yes, it is a well established word and a well established voting demographic. However, as I was trying to point out, as soon as you start thinking about it it becomes meaningless.

Perhaps the demographic should be "Spanish-speaking", where they have Spanish as their primary language. That would have the benefit of being meaningful. Not terribly useful for anything I can see, but meaningful.

Let's consider the 3 main Hispanic voting groups: Puerto Ricans, Mexican-Americans and Cuban-Americans. If we are talking about voting, we are talking about citizens so let's ignore non-citizens for the moment.

A very large portion of Puerto Ricans, although citizens, are not eligible to vote. Let's ignore them, too for the moment.

Could you tell me what interests these 3 groups have in common? The interests of Cuban-Americans are very different from the interests of Mexican-Americans and Puerto Ricans. What will win votes with one group will likely lose votes with one or both of the others.


Cuban-Americans vote fairly heavily Republican (60-70% IIRC) The Puerto Ricans living in FL (800,000+) are not as strongly Repo but still have a lot of Repo support. Puerto Ricans living in cities like NY are much more connected to and supportive of the Demmie machine.

Mexican Americans in CA are largely Demmie, I think. Less so in Texas and New Mexico.

So please, tell me how it is a well defined demographic for voting or any other purpose?

Tell me what interests, culture, racial heritage etc they have in common?

Dairylander wrote:(Personally, I prefer Latino, but you'll never hear me make a stink about it. All the documents and forms already say Hispanic, so it's ridiculous to worry about it.)


Latino and Hispanic are more or less equivalent and I have no problem with either of them. I certainly would never make a stink about either and was not trying to with my note asking for a definition. I was merely trying to point out that trying to shoehorn such a wildly diverse group of people into a single group is not particularly useful or helpful.

Just curious, is there any particular reason you prefer Latino?

Are you Hispanic/Latino? Not that it matters and ignore the question if you prefer.

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