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Anti-Ryan ad refused by WMTV

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Re: Anti-Ryan ad refused by WMTV

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:30 am

Huckleby wrote:Again, in the real world, nobody is completely altruistic. You've presented the false choice of complete selfishness as the only alternative to complete altruism.

You've made the classic, morally bankrupt rationalization for cold indifference. The argument being that since it is not possible to prevent suffering everywhere, we need not address suffering anywhere. Ayn Rand and her libertarian disciples who advocate for such amorality are killing people.

Exactly. Ayn Rand in her essay The Virtue of Selfishness holds that altruism is a false virtue. She wrote: "If any civilization is to survive, it is the morality of altruism that men have to reject."
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Re: Anti-Ryan ad refused by WMTV

Postby rabble » Sun Aug 19, 2012 10:51 am

I remember someone saying that Ghandi was asked much the same thing. "There is so much need in the world, what can we do?" His reply was that we are responsible for helping the ones nearby.

People in our back yard, in our own country, need help. We have a responsibility and if we forsake it, we will cause us harm that lasts for generations.

I still go by the logic that preventing is cheaper than cleaning up after the fact.

The reason we aren't doing more pro active things like health care is that we can't quantify the good it does as well as we can quantify the harm for the lack of it. And you can't profit from things you can't quantify.
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Re: Anti-Ryan ad refused by WMTV

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:04 am

rabble wrote: The reason we aren't doing more pro active things like health care is that we can't quantify the good it does as well as we can quantify the harm for the lack of it. And you can't profit from things you can't quantify.

Actually, it can be quantified. I'll repeat my link from page one of this discussion:
Lack Of Health Insurance Killed More Than 26,000 In 2010.

Ryan claims to be an observant Catholic, yet his adherence to the values espoused by Ayn Rand (an atheist) runs totally counter to Catholic teachings about such things as altruism.
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Re: Anti-Ryan ad refused by WMTV

Postby snoqueen » Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:28 am

I'm starting to think the anti-public-healthcare people are the dumbest ones in this game.

If you buy insurance privately or have insurance through your job, you are paying for everybody else's healthcare already. They're going to the emergency room and you're paying for it, or they're getting healthcare through some other loophole (like being indigent and not paying their bills when they arrive) and you're still paying for it.

Is this the way insured people want it to be?You really want to be paying under the table for these poorly-coordinated services?

If you don't want to be paying, propose something better and let the public take a look.

One solution might be to bar uninsured people from receiving any health care at all, even for emergencies. It might be do-able and you'd certainly cut your premiums.

If you think the best way is the way it is now, keep in mind you're perhaps unintentionally subsidizing some of the worst-outcome healthcare in the developed world. That seems pretty dumb if you consider that for pretty much the same dollars you could be subsidizing a better system to pay for uninsured people if you reject the notion of simply barring them from any care at all. That would get costly in the long run because calls for EMT assistance would go way up -- which has to be even more expensive than clients driving themselves to their own emergency room visits.

Only the individual can do the math on this one because everyone's personal situation is unique, but in the aggregate, we're getting piss-poor results for the present outlay, which rests mostly on the shoulders of those with private or employer-paid benefits.

All this hasn't got a lot to do with the off-a-cliff and over-the-top Ryan ad, but this discussion has digressed and my questions are valid ones.
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Re: Anti-Ryan ad refused by WMTV

Postby bdog » Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:43 am

Huckleby wrote:
bdog wrote:In that case we're all cold blooded murderers. Do you know you can save the life of a starving child in Africa for pennies a day?

We are into practical questions now. It is not possible to save the life of every person in the world. It is quite managable, easy in fact, for the richest nation in the world to provide health care access to all its citizens, thereby saving tens of thousands of lives every year.

"Easy in fact". That is obviously not the case. I think you are under the impression that it is not arguable. If that is the case then pursuing the discussion with you is ridiculous.

Assuming it is a practical, limited resources situation, and assuming that tough cuts are needed to ensure the survival of a safety net for future generations, would it be fair for Obama opponents to call him a mass murderer? No. It is a difference of opinion, nothing more.

Altruism does not exist. People do compassionate things because it makes them feel good. If they don't feel good about it they won't do it for very long.
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Re: Anti-Ryan ad refused by WMTV

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:57 am

bdog wrote:Altruism does not exist. People do compassionate things because it makes them feel good.

That is exactly what Ayn Rand said when she explained her Objectionist philosophy. So I guess you will be voting for Romney/Ryan.
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Re: Anti-Ryan ad refused by WMTV

Postby Huckleby » Sun Aug 19, 2012 12:17 pm

bdog wrote:
Huckleby wrote: It is quite managable, easy in fact, for the richest nation in the world to provide health care access to all its citizens, thereby saving tens of thousands of lives every year.
"Easy in fact". That is obviously not the case. I think you are under the impression that it is not arguable. If that is the case then pursuing the discussion with you is ridiculous..
Obviously not the case? There are about 80 developed countries around the world. 79 of them provide universal health care. I was talking to a guy from Morocco yesterday, a relatively poor country that is just getting developed. Everyone in his country can access government-run clinics. He is baffled at why American citizens accept that lower income people often can not get basic medical care here. He beleives it is becasue Americans are ignorant of the rest of the world.

You are deeply ignorant. You believe that providing basic medical care to all is some collosally expensive, utopian dream. Universal health models are practical and cheaper.

The reason our medical expenses have run through the roof has NOTHING whatsover to do with providing universal access or Medicaid to poor people. Something like 70% of medical costs are going to 10% of population, often end-of-life expenses.

We have a medical system that is wildly screwy and inefficient. It needs to be reformed. Medicare needs to be reformed. These are not issues related to universal access. We already have 85% of the population with access, expanding patient pool by 15% is not a make or break proposition.

bdog wrote: Assuming it is a practical, limited resources situation, and assuming that tough cuts are needed to ensure the survival of a safety net for future generations, would it be fair for Obama opponents to call him a mass murderer? No. It is a difference of opinion, nothing more..

Reforms need to be made to lower costs. The "tough cuts" that are needed aren't to throw people off medicaid, in fact medicaid expansion is desperately required. Republicans are liars in presenting this false choice.

Obama has a sense of morality, unlike so many on the right. I trust he will not make decisions on cuts that will result in many deaths.

bdog wrote: Altruism does not exist. People do compassionate things because it makes them feel good. If they don't feel good about it they won't do it for very long.
WEll, you've defined altruism in terms of selfish impusles. Ayn Rand did a similar Orwelian trick, defining selfishness as benefiting all, i.e. unselfishness.
Certainly saying altruism does not exist goes to far, we know that some people show care for others and act on that impulse. But I'll accept that self-gratification underlies such behavior, doesn't matter to me. If you cynically wish for a world where people don't exhibit altruism, well, I guess that just makes you a 21st century Republican.
Last edited by Huckleby on Sun Aug 19, 2012 12:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Anti-Ryan ad refused by WMTV

Postby bdog » Sun Aug 19, 2012 12:17 pm

I haven't decided. I will probably vote for whoever displays the best character (like I did when I voted for Mark Pocan).

I have a feeling both candidates will piss me off a great deal.
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Re: Anti-Ryan ad refused by WMTV

Postby bdog » Sun Aug 19, 2012 12:26 pm

Huckleby wrote:You are deeply ignorant.

Could be Huck. Could be Paul Ryan is ignorant too.

That doesn't make him a cold blooded murderer. Or do you think Paul Ryan agrees with everything you just said and still chooses to throw old ladies off a cliff?

BTW, I just watched the ad...interesting that's it's a white woman that gets thrown off the cliff. Wouldn't it be more likely to be a non-white woman? Oh that's right, they are after the white vote aren't they? It's dumbass Kelda Roys style politics...reject it.
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Re: Anti-Ryan ad refused by WMTV

Postby Igor » Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:41 pm

snoqueen wrote:Only the individual can do the math on this one because everyone's personal situation is unique, but in the aggregate, we're getting piss-poor results for the present outlay, which rests mostly on the shoulders of those with private or employer-paid benefits.


Okay, I'll bite. Given the law of unintended consequences, and the fact that health care is a very complex thing, why is everyone so sure that we can implement universal health care without negatively impacting the system in some other way? I'm not saying it can't be done, and frankly, I probably am inclined to support it. But lots of people are very sure about something that is incredibly complex.

The reality is that in eliminating the 25,000 (or whatever figure that was given) that die now, there will be other inefficiencies introduced that will cause some other number of people to die. Is that 500, 5000, or 50000? I don't know - but neither do you.
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Re: Anti-Ryan ad refused by WMTV

Postby Huckleby » Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:03 pm

bdog wrote: Could be Huck. Could be Paul Ryan is ignorant too.

That doesn't make him a cold blooded murderer. Or do you think Paul Ryan agrees with everything you just said and still chooses to throw old ladies off a cliff?

Paul Ryan may be a very good, generous, considerate person in the way he conducts his life.
John Stossell seems like a very amiable, gentle fellow. Wouldn't hurt a fly (as Norman Bates said about mom)
I just watched a C-Span lecture from a conservative catholic bishop (I think) who believes big government is immoral & corrupting. He is extremely intellectual, and a compassionate conservate who believes in a just and humane society.

I can not resolve all the contradictions in this world.

I will say this to libertarians and compassionate conservatives who want to use free market & charity for safety net: lets see the plan, include benchmarks for accountability, and I'll give it a 10 year try.
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Re: Anti-Ryan ad refused by WMTV

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:12 pm

Huckleby wrote:I will say this to libertarians and compassionate conservatives who want to use free market & charity for safety net: lets see the plan, include benchmarks for accountability, and I'll give it a 10 year try.

It was given a try for longer than that, starting with the the Gilded Age and ending with the Great Depression. It failed miserably.
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Re: Anti-Ryan ad refused by WMTV

Postby david cohen » Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:08 pm

All Rand-ayning aside...if WMTV refuses to run an anti-Ryan ad that they find (offensive, untrue, etc.), will they refuse to run the Special Ops swiftboating ad that is anti-Obama?
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Re: Anti-Ryan ad refused by WMTV

Postby bdog » Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:10 pm

Where is that ad? Aka, link please.
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Re: Anti-Ryan ad refused by WMTV

Postby bdog » Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:14 pm

david cohen wrote: Rand-ayning ... anti-Ryan

That is good, very good. But I think it only appeals to the defenders of the faith...so no votes gained.
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