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Ryan (not) Lyin

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Sandi » Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:18 pm

pjbogart wrote:Thanks for nothing. Do the authors of "Hot Air" bother actually telling you who they're quoting?


Yes, I believe all the quotes were linked.

pjbogart wrote:Can't you see when you're being duped, Sandi


Actually no. Unlike most is this thread:

1. I don't believe Obama lied.
2. I don't believe Ryan lied.
3. I don't put a whole lot of stock in the links to the fact checkers or the fact checking the fact checkers. However it did amuse me to throw a bit of salt into the pot.

I haven't participated in this thread much because it is of small importance to me. I have seen clips/read transcript both Obama's and Ryan's words for myself, and assure you that far greater issues concern me.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby DCB » Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:42 pm

At the Ohio speech a few weeks ago, Ryan said the plant closed "because of Obama's energy policies". Which is strange, since the closing was scheduled before he was even elected.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Bludgeon » Tue Sep 04, 2012 11:59 pm

DCB wrote:
Bludgeon wrote:
The odds are that he confused the date of the speech with the date of the election as a starting point, but if you firmly believe that he intentionally said "didn't last another year", instead of "didn't last another 19 months starting from the time he made the speech until the day they closed down the Isuzu section of the plant in summer 2009," I will let you enjoy that comfort.

Ryan is many things, but he's not sloppy. Particularly not for the biggest speech of his life.

On Aug. 16, he made similar comments, and said "the plant closed in 2009". Those comments also drew the attention of fact checkers. So he knew the timing was an issue. And he also knew that fact changes would pay attention when he brought it up again at the convention. I conclude he chose his word quite deliberately.

But if you firmly believe he got careless when accepting the nomination for the VP of the USA, I will give you that comfort.

I agree Ryan's a sharp guy. Still, as an example, I would say he's not near the level of political virtuoso that Clinton was at in 1992, and even he made a few rhetorical blunders. Truthfully I don't think Ryan is the best public speaker, he's better in debate. One of his weak points as a VP pick is that stump speeches don't come naturally to him, but I did think his performance was a plus at the RNC.

I appreciate that you've found a few examples of trying to make the same statement in speeches leading up to the convention. I really like Paul Ryan even if he wasn't on the ticket. Rather than careless or willfully dishonest, it seems more like inexperience in this kind of role as a speaker, and like he was trying out/practicing the line trying to get it ready for its final form.

I'm glad he got picked but campaign messaging is not a strong point of his.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Sandi » Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:02 am

Do you have a link for the particular speech you are talking about where Ryan said that? Obviously Ryan knows without a doubt that it was closed before Obama took office.

Update: You might be talking about what I just found in Gazette Extra.

Ryan congressional campaign spokesman Kevin Seifert said Ryan's criticism of Obama was referring to Democrats' energy policies at the time the plant closed.


It may not have been that, but Ryan could have been confused on another point. We all know that Ryan isn't that stupid.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby DCB » Wed Sep 05, 2012 11:42 am

Sandi wrote:Do you have a link for the particular speech you are talking about where Ryan said that? Obviously Ryan knows without a doubt that it was closed before Obama took office.

Update: You might be talking about what I just found in Gazette Extra.

Ryan congressional campaign spokesman Kevin Seifert said Ryan's criticism of Obama was referring to Democrats' energy policies at the time the plant closed.


It may not have been that, but Ryan could have been confused on another point. We all know that Ryan isn't that stupid.

I found it on the youtubes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oayCLo1VpQQ
About 9 minutes in.

I was incorrect before, for which I apologize.

He doesn't explicitly say "The president's energy polices caused the closure of the GM plant". He just implies it by jumping from one to the other without clarification.

He blames the closing of the plant on high gas prices, which is probably correct: the plant mostly made gas-guzzling SUVs.
Then he goes on to say "The president's terrible energy polices are costing us jobs".

You're right he's not stupid. He's just deceptive.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Sandi » Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:40 pm

DCB wrote:He just implies it by jumping from one to the other without clarification.


I am afraid pretty much all politician "imply" without "clarification." Just like Obama implied the government would keep it open for 100 years.

Neither is correct, but I wouldn't call either of them a liar.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby wack wack » Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:47 pm

Sandi wrote:
DCB wrote:He just implies it by jumping from one to the other without clarification.


I am afraid pretty much all politician "imply" without "clarification." Just like Obama implied the government would keep it open for 100 years.

Neither is correct, but I wouldn't call either of them a liar.


Obama's statement was of the if/then kind, suggesting what might be possible. Ryan's statements were declarations, expressing with certainty the way things are.

Neither is correct, but one is a whole lot closer to a lie than the other.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby Sandi » Wed Sep 05, 2012 12:51 pm

wack wack wrote:Neither is correct, but one is a whole lot closer to a lie than the other.


Now you are splitting hairs. Rather than belabor a trivial point I will concede.
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Re: Ryan (not) Lyin

Postby ilikebeans » Wed Sep 05, 2012 3:05 pm

Paul Ryan Quietly Requested Obamacare Cash

Republican vice-presidential candidate Paul Ryan is barnstorming the country, promising to repeal every provision of the Affordable Care Act if the Romney-Ryan ticket is elected. But a letter he wrote to the Obama administration may undermine this message.

On December 10, 2010, Ryan penned a letter to the Department of Health and Human Services to recommend a grant application for the Kenosha Community Health Center, Inc to develop a new facility in Racine, Wisconsin, an area within Ryan's district. "The proposed new facility, the Belle City Neighborhood Health Center, will serve both the preventative and comprehensive primary health care needs of thousands of new patients of all ages who are currently without health care," Ryan wrote.

The grant Ryan requested was funded directly by the Affordable Care Act, better known simply as health care reform or Obamacare.
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