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Sandra Fluke: Access to Birth Control

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Re: Sandra Fluke: Access to Birth Control

Postby ArturoBandini » Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:42 am

fisticuffs wrote:You actually don't pay. She pays, her insurance premium which now includes birth control.
That's a pretty weird idea. In your eyes, does the same principle apply to other components of insurance coverage? E.g. part of my insurance premium is just a direct 1-to-1 transfer of funds that goes to pay for my blood pressure medication?

It works for items that are less costly than the premiums, but what happens when total costs rise above that of premiums? A relative of mine has a condition that requires treatments that cost roughly $3k/month. His individual-specific premiums (paid by employer) probably do not cost >$3k month - the treatment costs are instead distributed across a group of subscribers, increasing the average premium price. Can you really say that they (the employer and other employees) don't pay for the treatments?

None of this is a problem, of course, it's the nature of insurance. I'm just trying to pick on your odd conception of how insurance works. It seems like you've chosen a convenient idea of insurance for this particular case (birth control) that doesn't apply universally.
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Re: Sandra Fluke: Access to Birth Control

Postby fisticuffs » Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:46 am

None of this is a problem, of course, it's the nature of insurance.


Nope sounds like we're on the same page. It's Bludgie who thinks Obama is picking his pocket to pay for some poor woman's pills. That's not at all what's happening. It's just another big lie propagated by the right wing media.
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Re: Sandra Fluke: Access to Birth Control

Postby ArturoBandini » Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:54 am

fisticuffs wrote:Nope sounds like we're on the same page.
I disagree. My entire post was a criticism of your understanding of insurance. I don't really have anything to say about Bludgeon's, because I don't know what his understanding is.
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Re: Sandra Fluke: Access to Birth Control

Postby fisticuffs » Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:59 am

I disagree. My entire post was a criticism of your understanding of insurance.


Then you misunderstood my understanding of insurance which isn't at all on display in my post. I know premiums aren't a direct 1 to 1 for care. I was simply stating that there is nothing "free" being handed out by "Obamacare" the change is simply removing the copay from birth control.
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Re: Sandra Fluke: Access to Birth Control

Postby ArturoBandini » Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:13 am

fisticuffs wrote:Then you misunderstood my understanding of insurance which isn't at all on display in my post. I know premiums aren't a direct 1 to 1 for care. I was simply stating that there is nothing "free" being handed out by "Obamacare" the change is simply removing the copay from birth control.
Bludgeon didn't say that anything would be free, he said that "you [would] get the bill", which is partially true, by the nature of insurance. Again, there is nothing wrong with insurance that pools the cost of services, including birth control.

The problem is that you no longer can choose between services that have $0 copay on birth control, those that charge a copay, and those that don't cover the service at all. That's the fundamental problem, and it applies to all forms of mandated coverage, not just birth control.

Bastiat, on the distinction between doing good things and using force to make other people do the good things that you want them to: (The Law):
Socialism, like the ancient ideas from which it springs, confuses the distinction between government and society. As a result of this, every time we object to a thing being done by government, the socialists conclude that we object to its being done at all.

We disapprove of state education. Then the socialists say that we are opposed to any education. We object to a state religion. Then the socialists say that we want no religion at all. We object to a state-enforced equality. Then they say that we are against equality. And so on, and so on. It is as if the socialists were to accuse us of not wanting persons to eat because we do not want the state to raise grain.
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Re: Sandra Fluke: Access to Birth Control

Postby fisticuffs » Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:18 am

Bludgeon didn't say that anything would be free, he said that "you [would] get the bill", which is partially true, by the nature of insurance.


Partially true but still bullshit. Everyone gets laid, everyone gets the bill. Maybe Bludgeons problem is he isn't getting laid.
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Re: Sandra Fluke: Access to Birth Control

Postby DCB » Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:29 am

ArturoBandini wrote:Bastiat, on the distinction between doing good things and using force to make other people do the good things that you want them to:

Sometimes those 'good things' wouldn't happen unless mandated by gov't . Like coverage of birth control, or public education. That's not socialism, that's just being practical.
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Re: Sandra Fluke: Access to Birth Control

Postby Marvell » Fri Sep 07, 2012 11:32 am

From a commentor at Alicublog:

And, once again, these guys have totally missed what Fluke was testifying about that day when she came to Limpblob's attention. Her point was that at Georgetown U, faculty and employees have health insurance that covers all forms of contraception; as a grad student she had to either (1) prove she had alternate health insurance, or (2) buy the crap health insurance that was offered to students, which did not cover contraception. Proof of health insurance is required if you want to attend Georgetown U, just like it is at most colleges and U's.

What she wanted was for students to be able to purchase the same policy that the faculty and employees had, instead of the crap insurance because the crap insurance didn't cover nearly as many things. As an example, she noted that she had a fellow grad student friend who has polycystic ovary disease, a seriously painful condition that can be kept under control by using birth control pills. She also noted that the crap health insurance does not pay for birth control pills, even in her friend's case of medical need, and they are expensive, especially when you are a student with very little income and you have to pay full price for them rather than a lower negotiated rate like would be the case if their insurance covered them. For this Limpballs turned her into a one-woman sexbot who needed gallon jars of birth control pills because obviously she was fucking everything in sight.


So - let's sum up:

Sandi is a gullible moron.

Ned Flanders is a snickering pervo.

The political discourse in this country is a goddamn embarassment.
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Re: Sandra Fluke: Access to Birth Control

Postby ArturoBandini » Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:47 pm

DCB wrote:Sometimes those 'good things' wouldn't happen unless mandated by gov't . Like coverage of birth control, or public education.
First off, you cannot prove that these "good things" wouldn't happen without the government forcibly making people do them - that's just your assertion. A counterargument would be that education certainly existed before the US government got involved, and that lots of people were able to obtain reasonably-priced birth control and other medications before their inclusion in insurance coverage was mandated by the government.
DCB wrote:That's not socialism, that's just being practical.
Why can't it be both? Socialism, while dysfunctional as a whole, can have some positive or practical components. I'm OK with recognizing that.
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Re: Sandra Fluke: Access to Birth Control

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:51 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:
DCB wrote:Sometimes those 'good things' wouldn't happen unless mandated by gov't . Like coverage of birth control, or public education.
First off, you cannot prove that these "good things" wouldn't happen without the government forcibly making people do them - that's just your assertion. A counterargument would be that education certainly existed before the US government got involved...

Prior to the widespread introduction of public education, only five per cent of Americans achieved a high school education.
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Re: Sandra Fluke: Access to Birth Control

Postby ArturoBandini » Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:54 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:Prior to the widespread introduction of public education, only five per cent of Americans achieved a high school education.
My point stands.
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Re: Sandra Fluke: Access to Birth Control

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:57 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:Prior to the widespread introduction of public education, only five per cent of Americans achieved a high school education.
My point stands.

Yes, education existed in the U.S. before public schools were established , but only for the elites.
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Re: Sandra Fluke: Access to Birth Control

Postby DCB » Fri Sep 07, 2012 1:41 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:
DCB wrote:That's not socialism, that's just being practical.
Why can't it be both?

Because it isn't.
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Re: Sandra Fluke: Access to Birth Control

Postby ArturoBandini » Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:18 pm

DCB wrote:
ArturoBandini wrote:Why can't it be both?

Because it isn't.
Public education absolutely is a socialist concept, or at least one that is highly regarded by actual socialists and related collectivist groups (see plank #10 in the Communist Manifesto). If there is a more fitting philosophical category for the concept of public education, I'd like to hear it.

Mandated insurance coverage terms are not really socialist, but rather authoritarian. The fact that this strongarm law applies to insurance (a social institution) makes the distinction somewhat muddled.
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Re: Sandra Fluke: Access to Birth Control

Postby HawkHead » Fri Sep 07, 2012 2:59 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:First off, you cannot prove that these "good things" wouldn't happen without the government forcibly making people do them - that's just your assertion. A counterargument would be that education certainly existed before the US government got involved, and that lots of people were able to obtain reasonably-priced birth control and other medications before their inclusion in insurance coverage was mandated by the government.


Of course you can. You can compare and contrast different countries and governments from around the world and see what policies are in effect and what the results are.
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