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DNC 2012

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: DNC 2012

Postby johnfajardohenry » Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:17 pm

Dangerousman wrote:
DCB wrote:I am retroactively predicting that none of the artists (Fleetwood Mac, Stevie Wonder, ...) will complain about their music being played at the convention.

Although it would be pretty cool if Biden walks out to the tune "journey to the center of your mind".


Here is an interesting article about the use of music. Seems like most larger venues have licenses to play whatever they like, paying a blanket license fee to ASCAP.

Fox too, I would imagine, has some sort of blanket license deal with ASCAP to play music as they like.

The artists don't seem to have much right to complain. First because the music is probably licensed anyway and second because the rights are owned or at least exercised by the owner of the record label, not the artists.

Article here:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/therecord/2012 ... paigns-101

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Re: DNC 2012

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:32 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:Fox too, I would imagine, has some sort of blanket license deal with ASCAP to play music as they like.
You imagine incorrectly.
Licensing songs or recordings (and note, there's quite a difference there) for television is one of the most lucrative ways for artists, record companies, and publishers to make money. There's no reason why they would give that up for the kind of blanket deals which cover venues.
johnfajardohenry wrote:The artists don't seem to have much right to complain. First because the music is probably licensed anyway and second because the rights are owned or at least exercised by the owner of the record label, not the artists.
That entirely depends on who owns what -- again, there's a difference between the publishing rights to a song and the rights to a recording. And there's also a big difference between a band covering a song at a local venue and Fox broadcasting an existing recording of a popular tune on national television. Strange that you would assume the two are somehow similar situations, but I assure you, they ain't.
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Re: DNC 2012

Postby johnfajardohenry » Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:58 pm

pjbogart wrote:
johnfajardohenry wrote:First, they kept focusing on a woman holding up a Ford sign. Obama saved exactly zero jobs at Ford because Ford did not take a nickle of taxpayer money. That all went to GM and Chrysler.


Maybe the camera operator also found it curious that someone was holding up a Ford sign. I'm pretty sure Jennifer Granholm wasn't controlling the cameras with foot pedals.


I didn't know who decided to show the Ford signs, I was fairly certain that it was not Granholm. I figured there would also be GM and Chrysler signs and that they were not shown. Seemed a bit odd.

Since I posted that, I found out the reason. Ford apparently passed out thousands of the signs before Granholm's speech. The govt companies didn't.

pjbogart wrote:Other than being argumentative, I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. Do you believe that the eventual failure of GM and Chrysler is unavoidable? And we're talking about jobs, not trademarks.


Not sure what you mean by the last bit there but I do think their failure is inevitable absent more propping up. Chrysler's been on the skids since the 70's. Carter should have let them go bankrupt back then. I've been saying for 30 years it was a horrible precedent.

Ditto GM and their long downhill slide.

The trademarks/brands may or may not survive. GM has killed several of theirs (Oldsmobile, Pontiac) so far. What brand is next? Cadillac? The average age of the Caddy buyer these days is over 60.

GM/Chrysler as employers may or may not go away too.

What is certain is that auto production will not. If GM were to close, someone would buy the parts that have any value and put them to work. US auto production would continue at a good clip. Just under new ownership/management.would continue to increase


pjbogart wrote: Perhaps when you think of industry you think about corporate logos and nifty products but I think most of us think of industry as something which creates employment for people.


Actually for the past 35 years I have spent 3-4 days or more of the typical week in manufacturing plants in a variety of industries. So to me, probably more than most, those industries are about things being made by people

I know what those jobs are and what those people do. Most of what you(?) and most people see as "good" jobs in manufacturing are pretty mind killing and often backbreaking and do not pay much better than McDonalds. Speaking of the unskilled jobs here, assemblers, operators and the like.

Those jobs are going away and have been for years. As Henry Ford said almost 100 years ago (In "My Life and Work") Never pay a man to do what a machine can do. He also talked about how one man with a machine can replace many men without them.

So to talk about those jobs ever coming back is BS. They won't and probably should not.

What about you? Ever worked in manufacturing? Ever visited one a manufacturing plant floor?

pjbogart wrote:We have biotech and insurance companies here in Madison, but I think most of us value them as sources of jobs


Yup. One of them is a client of mine.

You are looking at them in exactly the wrong way. They do not exist to provide jobs. They are not social welfare agencies. They exist because people want/need DNA testing. Manufacturers exist only because people want the product that they make. As soon as that want goes away, or someone else can provide it better the company will disappear and the jobs with it.

And that is as it should be.

Note that better does not necessarily mean cheaper though that is one possibility.

pjbogart wrote:So when Democrats say, "we saved the industry" what they're really talking about is saving jobs.


Well, they did save those jobs. Some of them, for a while, anyway. But at what cost? The money the govt pulled out of the economy to save the jobs of the politically powerful cost jobs of the less politically powerful. Other jobs were lost that nobody wants to talk about.

pjbogart wrote:This is one of those times where you pretend you're confused by the language of the plebes even when the meaning is as plain as day. Toyota is not an American car company.


No, I am not. I realize that Toyota is headquartered in Japan and the others are headquartered in Germany, Korea etc.

I was referring to the plants that they have in the US building cars. Those plants pay US taxes, buy US raw materials and components and, just by way of no harm, hire American employees.

Most of those American plants, that are part of the American auto industry are doing pretty well.

pjbogart wrote:And that brand new Datsun you've been driving around in? It was built in 1986.


Actually I drive a Hyundai and I do not understand your joke. On the other hand, in 1985 I bought a new Subaru station wagon. I put over 100,000 miles on it and gave it to my nephew 3 years later. He drove it for a year or two before he moved to Nebraska. His father took it over and drove it about an hour each way to work every day. No idea how many miles it had on it. The speedometer broke at about 350,000 about 10 years before the car finally bit the dust 3-4 years ago.

My son drives a Nissan that I bought in 2001, has close to 200,000 miles on it. My wife drives a 2005 Mistubishi SUV with 110,000+ miles on it.

Other than normal wear items, none of those cars have spent any time in the shop. (Don't know about the Subaru after my nephew took it)

Try that with a govt motors car.

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Re: DNC 2012

Postby johnfajardohenry » Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:01 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:You imagine incorrectly.
Licensing songs or recordings (and note, there's quite a difference there) for television is one of the most lucrative ways for artists, record companies, and publishers to make money. There's no reason why they would give that up for the kind of blanket deals which cover venues.


Read the article and we can discuss it.

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:And there's also a big difference between a band covering a song at a local venue and Fox broadcasting an existing recording of a popular tune on national television.


I was not aware that any band was covering the song. I thought we were only talking about recordings here.

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Re: DNC 2012

Postby Madsci » Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:11 pm

I caught parts of the DNC.

I enjoyed the enthusiasm of Elizabeth Warren. I could vote for her.

After Biden gave his speech, I could see how his story would attract the working class and see his appeal.

I fell asleep when the president, Barack Obama, gave his speech. Granted it was past my bedtime and all.
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Re: DNC 2012

Postby johnfajardohenry » Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:13 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:
Prof. Wagstaff wrote:You imagine incorrectly.

Licensing songs or recordings (and note, there's quite a difference there) for television is one of the most lucrative ways for artists, record companies, and publishers to make money. There's no reason why they would give that up for the kind of blanket deals which cover venues.


ASCAP Television Licensing

Television Licensing administers ASCAP license agreements with approximately 1,300 local television station customers, as well as the ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS, and Univision networks. We have also blanket and per program agreements for the LPTV industry.

Our local station customers can be licensed under a blanket or a per program license. Both license types provide total access to ASCAP's ever-growing repertory. The choice of license is made by the station.

To learn more about Television Licensing, or to speak to an ASCAP Account Manager regarding your existing ASCAP television account, please contact us at:
TVLicensing@ascap.com


http://www.ascap.com/licensing/tv/


Here is the blanket license agreement for convention centers:

http://www.ascap.com/~/media/Files/Pdf/ ... ention.pdf


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Re: DNC 2012

Postby johnfajardohenry » Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:18 pm

pjbogart wrote:So when Democrats say, "we saved the industry" what they're really talking about is saving jobs.


Ever seen this? From Bastiat, about 170 years ago?


The parable of the broken window

Have you ever witnessed the anger of the good shopkeeper, James Goodfellow, when his careless son happened to break a pane of glass? If you have been present at such a scene, you will most assuredly bear witness to the fact that every one of the spectators, were there even thirty of them, by common consent apparently, offered the unfortunate owner this invariable consolation—"It is an ill wind that blows nobody good. Everybody must live, and what would become of the glaziers if panes of glass were never broken?"

Now, this form of condolence contains an entire theory, which it will be well to show up in this simple case, seeing that it is precisely the same as that which, unhappily, regulates the greater part of our economical institutions.

Suppose it cost six francs to repair the damage, and you say that the accident brings six francs to the glazier's trade—that it encourages that trade to the amount of six francs—I grant it; I have not a word to say against it; you reason justly. The glazier comes, performs his task, receives his six francs, rubs his hands, and, in his heart, blesses the careless child. All this is that which is seen.

But if, on the other hand, you come to the conclusion, as is too often the case, that it is a good thing to break windows, that it causes money to circulate, and that the encouragement of industry in general will be the result of it, you will oblige me to call out, "Stop there! Your theory is confined to that which is seen; it takes no account of that which is not seen."

It is not seen that as our shopkeeper has spent six francs upon one thing, he cannot spend them upon another. It is not seen that if he had not had a window to replace, he would, perhaps, have replaced his old shoes, or added another book to his library. In short, he would have employed his six francs in some way, which this accident has prevented.

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Re: DNC 2012

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Fri Sep 07, 2012 9:48 pm

Uh... ASCAP stands for American Society of Composers, Authors, and Publishers. It has nothing to do with recordings.

You always need permission to use someone else's recording, unless it's in the public domain.

Rereading my post now, I see why you're confused -- I was in a hurry, so my bad. But I assure you, no local bar is shelling out $91M/year to have bands play covers.
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Re: DNC 2012

Postby Stebben84 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:03 pm

Duh. John Henry is the smartest man alive. He is an expert on everything.
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Re: DNC 2012

Postby johnfajardohenry » Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:12 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:Uh... ASCAP stands for American Society of Composers, Authors, and Publishers. It has nothing to do with recordings.

You always need permission to use someone else's recording, unless it's in the public domain.


Good lord! What are you a professor of, Ignorance?

Go look at the ASCAP site and see what it is that they license.

Go look at the links I posted.

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Re: DNC 2012

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:21 pm

Y'know, screw this...
Last edited by Prof. Wagstaff on Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DNC 2012

Postby pjbogart » Fri Sep 07, 2012 10:40 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:
pjbogart wrote:And that brand new Datsun you've been driving around in? It was built in 1986.


Actually I drive a Hyundai and I do not understand your joke.


They don't make Datsuns in America. In fact, they don't make Datsuns at all. Not since 1986.
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Re: DNC 2012

Postby DCB » Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:38 pm

johnfajardohenry wrote:Here is an interesting article about the use of music....

http://www.npr.org/blogs/therecord/2012 ... paigns-101

John Henry

FTA:
If you're a candidate for president, there's a good chance you've been sued — or at least threatened — by a musician.

The legal aspect is only mildly interesting (to me). But I think its funny that its almost entirely Republican candidates that get in trouble. They had to go back 4 years to find a complaint against Obama.
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Re: DNC 2012

Postby pjbogart » Sun Sep 09, 2012 10:46 pm

DCB wrote:They had to go back 4 years to find a complaint against Obama.


Well, yeah, but the last campaign was four years ago. As someone who has dabbled in music and written quite a few extraordinarily crappy tunes, I think a campaign using my song would be really exciting. And I'd be sure to complain about it just for the extra publicity.

For instance, "It has come to my attention that the Obama campaign is using my song without my permission. I support Obama and I don't have anything in particular against him using my song, but it would have been nice if he asked me before he used it."

Or, alternatively, "Mitt Romney obviously knows more about good music than he does about middle class families or copyright laws. Everything I stand for as a musician and a human being is diametrically opposed to his campaign so why he'd be playing my song is a complete mystery to me. Maybe he should ask his dancing horse to come up with a snappy tune. Frankly, I don't care what music he uses as long as it isn't mine."

Voila... front page news and a few million downloads of my song.
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Re: DNC 2012

Postby amused2death » Mon Sep 10, 2012 12:01 pm

pjbogart wrote: "So when Democrats say, "we saved the industry" what they're really talking about is saving jobs."

That's some fox news/msnbc worthy spin pj. If that is what was meant then why not just say that? Everyone knows(atleast should know) that if a Republican said the same thing you would be on here calling it a lie. Your motives are as transparent as cornbreads.
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