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Chicago Teachers Strike

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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:19 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:50% of all teachers leave the profession within the first five years. Must be because they are over compensated and have such great working conditions.



What % of that number leave due to layoffs Henry?
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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri Sep 14, 2012 5:35 pm

From the Washington Post: Half of Teachers Quit in 5 Years. That's from 2006. The years of service for half to bug out is even lower now.

If you think the attrition is due to layoffs, show your evidence.
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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:37 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:From the Washington Post: Half of Teachers Quit in 5 Years. That's from 2006. The years of service for half to bug out is even lower now.

If you think the attrition is due to layoffs, show your evidence.


I don't think the attrition is due to layoffs. Or rather I don't think all of the attrition is due to layoff but I'm curious as to the percent. hence the question.
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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby amused2death » Sat Sep 15, 2012 3:00 am

Henry - Do you have a link to the actual study that is cited in the article? Sorry that i don't take the agenda driven NEA at face value without seeing the supposed corroborating study. In the article they only give one example of a teacher leaving and claiming it was because of working conditions and pay but it also says she became a stay at home mom(no pay) but doesn't give a timeline.

In my experience working in 6 different school districts the majority of teachers that stopped teaching were women that became stay at home moms and teachers that went into administration. What did you see in the districts that you worked in?

For those claiming to have quit because of pay, did they not know or understand what the pay level was prior to going into the education field? Gotta love those people that choose a profession where the pay scale is pretty much common knowledge yet constantly wine about the pay. Were you one of those types Henry? I was not.
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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby Henry Vilas » Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:01 am

I taught for 30 years before I retired. I made less than ten thousand a year for my first couple years. I did not quit. I don't have access to the study. Yes, it was done by a teacher organization. Who else would do so... the Heritage Foundation? If you doubt the results, come up with your own evidence.
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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:46 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:I taught for 30 years before I retired. I made less than ten thousand a year for my first couple years. I did not quit. I don't have access to the study. Yes, it was done by a teacher organization. Who else would do so... the Heritage Foundation? If you doubt the results, come up with your own evidence.



You realize you haven't actually presented any evidence, right? Just a claim by the NEA of a study they did. Might I add, a claim from 6 years ago.

You know, I'm sure Meade posted something you don't like somewhere, why don't you go swear at him or something.
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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby Henry Vilas » Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:58 pm

It was reported in the Washington Post. Why don't you contact them for the actual study? Or ask the NEA directly? Anecdotally, I saw the same early departures from teaching here in Madison. This after they spent tens of thousands of dollars to get their degrees and certifications to teach.
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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby SlayerDave » Sat Sep 15, 2012 6:41 pm

Here's some more info on the study:
http://shankerblog.org/?p=4534

From the Albert Shanker Institute, not exactly an unsympathetic source. Paragraphs that I found interesting...

Needless to say, some attrition is inevitable, and not all of it is necessarily harmful, Many new teachers, like all workers, leave (or are dismissed) because they are just aren’t good at it – and, indeed, there is test-based evidence that novice leavers are, on average, less effective. But there are many other excellent teachers who exit due to working conditions or other negative factors that might be improved (for reviews of the literature on attrition/retention, see here and here).

...
The primary source for the claim seems to be analyses by respected University of Pennsylvania professor Richard Ingersoll (presented, among other places, in this 2003 report). Ingersoll uses data from the 2001-02 Teacher Follow-Up Survey (TFS). The TFS is a supplement to the Schools and Staffing Survey (SASS), a highly regarded national survey of teachers conducted by the National Center for Education Statistics (NCES).

...
Second, due to data limitations, these estimates cannot account for teachers who leave teaching and then return at a later point. This phenomenon is quite common – in fact, some studies estimate that as much as 20-25 percent of leavers return to the profession at some later point (also see here). Some also take non-teaching jobs within the education field.

...
Certainly, new teacher leaving is higher than that among entrants into other professions, such as law and medicine, that require extensive investment in occupation-specific human capital. But research comparing teachers with a wide range of other jobs is somewhat limited. This 2001 paper looks at 1992-93 college graduates who were teaching in 1994. The analysis indicates that the proportion who had left teaching by 1997 was similar to or lower than those of other graduates’ occupations.**
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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby johnfajardohenry » Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:39 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:I taught for 30 years before I retired. I made less than ten thousand a year for my first couple years.


Was that a lot or a little? It doesn't sound like much today. To know whether we should feel sympathy or envy we would need to know what years you are talking about.

Median family (not individual) money income for whites in 1970 was $9,870.

http://www2.census.gov/prod2/popscan/p60-080.pdf

If you started working in the late 60's, I would say you were doing pretty well for yourself. $10m was a fairly nice middle class salary.

That does not even take into account that most people have to work 52 weeks (less any vacation time) to earn that. Teachers typically work about 8-9 weeks less per year.

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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby johnfajardohenry » Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:54 pm

SlayerDave wrote:Here's some more info on the study:
http://shankerblog.org/?p=4534


Thanks for the link, Dave. I had also found another study on the NEA site that seemed to indicate less than 50% quite in 5 years as well.

It seems like a scare tactic.

There does not seem to be any shortage of people trying to enter the teaching profession.

I've never understood the myth that teachers are underpaid. If you actually look at how much they earn, it is a pretty decent middle class living. They are not getting rich, of course, but they do seem to be getting paid reasonably well, generally.

I would like to see some more info about why the teachers are leaving. Is it because of the supposedly low pay or is it because of working conditions (using that in a very broad sense)? Based on my readings over the years I suspect that it is more likely to be the latter than the former.

If the latter, then why would one expect higher pay would either help retention or make teachers any better teachers?

I would be curious to know what kinds of jobs the teachers leaving in less than 5 years are taking and whether they are making more or less than they did as teachers.

The study doesn't say.

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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby johnfajardohenry » Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:01 pm

So Galoot,

I answered your question about an example of testing.

As I said, it is your turn.

Are you going to answer my question?

Do you feel that teacher performance should be evaluated by some method?

Or do you think that just improving the hiring process eliminates the need for evaluation?

If the former, what means of evaluation would you propose?

John Henry
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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby Meade » Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:02 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:I taught for 30 years before I retired. I made less than ten thousand a year for my first couple years. I did not quit.

Why were you among the 54% to stay in a profession so underpaid, so little respected, with such onerous work conditions?
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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby Mad Howler » Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:58 pm

Meade wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:I taught for 30 years before I retired. I made less than ten thousand a year for my first couple years. I did not quit.

Why were you among the 54% to stay in a profession so underpaid, so little respected, with such onerous work conditions?


Perhaps a deep and durable respect of the concept of civicism. It is not too late for the L to look into this channel for it's frustrations.
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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby Galoot » Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:58 am

Mr. Henry, you did not answer my question, or else you apparently didn't understand it. Go back and read the question again. Hint: it had to do with TEACHER EVALUATIONS.

Do you have any evidence that this test that goes back over 100 years has been used to evaluate teachers, and that this evaluation produced better overall achievement for students?

My goodness, if this example of teacher assessment via a standard test goes back 100 and more years (which is the right-wing wet dream for school reform) then NY schools would have been producing the best in the country for, oh, 80 of those years, wouldn't it?
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Re: Chicago Teachers Strike

Postby bdog » Sun Sep 16, 2012 7:32 am

Mad Howler wrote:
Meade wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:I taught for 30 years before I retired. I made less than ten thousand a year for my first couple years. I did not quit.

Why were you among the 54% to stay in a profession so underpaid, so little respected, with such onerous work conditions?


Perhaps a deep and durable respect of the concept of civicism.

Ayn Rand is rolling over in her grave.

Henry did it because he loved to teach. A totally selfish motive, but with great results. Way to go Henry.
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