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Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby massimo » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:27 pm

Huckleby wrote:...and people are fine with requiring photo ID.
"People" are fine with a lot of fucked up shit, but it doesn't make it right. I believe that point has already been made, but you're wrong on the internet, so I had to speak up.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Huckleby » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:36 pm

massimo wrote:
Huckleby wrote:...and people are fine with requiring photo ID.
"People" are fine with a lot of fucked up shit, but it doesn't make it right.


More than half of the country disagree with you on what constitutes "right"

The most important "right" here is the right to vote. So pursuing a strategy that gets the most people voting is what matters. Beating head against the wall on Voter ID may be right in principle, but wrong on results.

BTW, I'm OK with continuing the head beating, but I advise an alternate strategy to deal with the REALITY that the photo ID laws are likely to stick in some form in most states.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Henry Vilas » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:42 pm

People originally opposed Social Security cards as a form of government identification (in that time in history fascist communist and dictatorships required internal passports) even though it didn't contain a photo. Notice the "not for identification" notation on the card.

My, how times have changed.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby pjbogart » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:51 pm

massimo wrote:
Huckleby wrote:...and people are fine with requiring photo ID.
"People" are fine with a lot of fucked up shit, but it doesn't make it right. I believe that point has already been made, but you're wrong on the internet, so I had to speak up.


I don't personally have any problem with ID requirements at the polls, but they need to make getting an ID easy and free. Couldn't we make ID's available at post offices as well as DMV's? What about city hall? How about any police station? We have those all over the place. I think the police could be trusted to properly ID you before issuing you an official photo identification.

And if we're going to push ID requirements I think that same day voter registration should be required in every State. Give a little, take a little.

2016 sounds like a fine target for revamping ID requirements. That gives States four years to get photo ID booths in every police station in the country. I really don't think that's too onerous a task.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby jman111 » Tue Oct 02, 2012 4:54 pm

What I find particularly odd is that, of the several people I know who lately tend to openly proclaim support of voter ID laws personally to me, all but one used to ramble on about not allowing the "big brother" govt to track their identities and activities and openly worried about the trend toward a required national ID.
Someone seems to be doing an excellent job of utilizing (and feeding) their paranoia.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Huckleby » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:41 pm

pjbogart wrote: I don't personally have any problem with ID requirements at the polls, but they need to make getting an ID easy and free.

Agreed. It's worth reminding that 100% of people agree that we need voter ID. The disagreement is limited to how reliable that ID should be.

It seems to me (and to most) that a gov-issued picture ID is good idea, even if it prevents no fraud at least it mollifies half the population who suspect fraud (and there is no way to prove their fears wrong.) The real problem is voter suppression caused by so many people not having photo ID.

It's good for the country and progressive politics to get photo IDs more widespread. We don't want poor people getting screwed by the Check Cashing services, everyone should be able to have a bank account. People with ID have an easy time registering to vote.
Last edited by Huckleby on Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Huckleby » Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:47 pm

jman111 wrote:What I find particularly odd is that, of the several people I know who lately tend to openly proclaim support of voter ID laws personally to me, all but one used to ramble on about not allowing the "big brother" govt to track their identities and activities and openly worried about the trend toward a required national ID.
Someone seems to be doing an excellent job of utilizing (and feeding) their paranoia.


Well, ya, this is my pet peeve. A national ID card would solve so many problems, from limiting identity theft to expanding voter participation. The gov can already track us by credit cards and SSN and so many ways. The U.S. is an oddball in not having a national ID system. The same right-wing xenophobes worried about illegals are afraid of a card that identifies citizenship. Those same fools support E-Verify, which amounts to an error-ridden, jerry-rigged national ID system. I'm moving to Canada.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby pjbogart » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:06 pm

Huckleby wrote:
pjbogart wrote: I don't personally have any problem with ID requirements at the polls, but they need to make getting an ID easy and free.

Agreed. It's worth reminding that 100% of people agree that we need voter ID. The disagreement is limited to how reliable that ID should be.

It seems to me (and to most) that a gov-issued picture ID is good idea, even if it prevents no fraud at least it mollifies half the population who suspect fraud (and there is no way to prove their fears wrong.) The real problem is voter suppression caused by so many people not having photo ID.

It's good for the country and progressive politics to get photo IDs more widespread. We don't want poor people getting screwed by the Check Cashing services, everyone should be able to have a bank account. People with ID have an easy time registering to vote.


Huck, you edited that post twice? It reads like a fucking Rorschach test. Are you shooting heroin in the Wal-Mart parking lot?

First off, no where near 100% of people believe we NEED voter ID.

And how in the hell would photo ID's prevent poor people from being screwed by check cashing stores? Usury laws would prevent poor people from being screwed by check cashing stores. I'm pretty certain they aren't passing out money to people who lack photo ID's. Don't even get me started on why all check cashing stores should be banned. The only thing more damaging to our economy than those shylocks is lottery tickets. And it's a close call.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby massimo » Tue Oct 02, 2012 9:12 pm

Huckleby wrote:It's worth reminding that 100% of people agree that we need voter ID.
Ok, it's clear now you're just being an idiot. Carry on.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Huckleby » Tue Oct 02, 2012 11:17 pm

pjbogart wrote: First off, no where near 100% of people believe we NEED voter ID.

We have a confusion of terms, and I conflated the issues of voting and registering.
The point of contention really is over voter registration. Everybody agrees that a person needs SOME sort of ID to register. In the most liberal states, that could be a utility bill, the address for which is typically verified later by sending a post card to that address. Conservatives want a photo ID and/or proof of citizenship to start the registration process.

pjbogart wrote: And how in the hell would photo ID's prevent poor people from being screwed by check cashing stores?
The reason many people don't have bank accounts is that they lack drivers licenses or state ID cards to open an account.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Huckleby » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:00 am

There was a debate on photo ID laws on PBS Newshour last night. You had two people ignoring each other and delivery prepared speeches against the moral failings of the other side. Sounded familar.

The country is split about evenly into two camps, one sincerely believes that fraud is a problem, the other sincerely believes that the point of photo ID is just suppression. (On top of that, there clearly is a cynical Republican strategy of voter suppression, but I don't think that reflects the intentions of most conservative-leaning people.)

The way forward is to not argue fraud vrs suppression, but to have a policy that respects both concerns as valid. Otherwise we have endless battles.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby rabble » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:37 am

Huckleby wrote:The way forward is to not argue fraud vrs suppression, but to have a policy that respects both concerns as valid. Otherwise we have endless battles.

Seems like that would mean accepting the notion that widespread voter fraud exists.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby DCB » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:43 am

Huckleby wrote:The way forward is to not argue fraud vrs suppression, but to have a policy that respects both concerns as valid. Otherwise we have endless battles.

There is no reason to respect 'voter fraud' as a valid concern, because it isn't. The polite way to respond to such concerns is to point out that they are baseless. If someone persists in worrying about things that don't exist they should see a therapist.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby ilikebeans » Wed Oct 03, 2012 10:58 am

Huckleby wrote:(On top of that, there clearly is a cynical Republican strategy of voter suppression, but I don't think that reflects the intentions of most conservative-leaning people.)

I'm not sure your choice of the word "cynical" fits here. Let's go with "evil" instead. Yeah, I don't care how loaded that term is.

The very clear-cut, premeditated strategy by the operatives in the Republican party and right-leaning think tanks is to repress the vote by the poor and minorities, which tend to vote Democratic. In light of many reports that have come out showing no evidence of widespread voter fraud, there is no other explanation for such a strong ALEC-coordinated push across the country.

Mike Turzai of Pennsylvania let that very strategy slip when he uttered, "Voter ID, which is gonna allow Governor Romney to win the state of Pennsylvania, done."

Joe and Jane Everyday-Conservative are simply aping the shit poured into their ears by Fox News, as always. Fox is framing it as "ballot integrity" and Joe and Jane are not thinking beyond that.
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Re: Tough ID laws could block thousands of 2012 votes

Postby Huckleby » Wed Oct 03, 2012 11:10 am

rabble wrote:
Huckleby wrote:The way forward is to not argue fraud vrs suppression, but to have a policy that respects both concerns as valid. Otherwise we have endless battles.

Seems like that would mean accepting the notion that widespread voter fraud exists.


No. You don't have to change your mind. And the people who see no voter suppression don't have to change their minds. The people on the other side sincerely believe they hold the moral high ground, they are preventing fraud. There is no way to definitively prove either point of view. The idea is break the deadlock by accomodating both sides. It's called compromise, and it beats the hell out of endless fighting.
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