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Impressions of the VP debate

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Re: Impressions of the VP debate

Postby Sandi » Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:23 pm

A few points. One, if you'd like to relate this to the thread you should at the very least mention that in the debate Biden denied having misled the public on the timeline related to the Benghazi attacks. I know you'd like to insert your tin-foil hat conspiracy theories wherever possible, but at least tell us how your delusions relate to the topic at hand.


I would have responded to all three of your points, however with "tin-foil hat" trollish remark means debate is futile. I rarely respond to trolls.

If you want to rephrase you post to a civil debate, and attack the thought, not the messenger I will do my best to answer.
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Re: Impressions of the VP debate

Postby DCB » Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:37 pm

pjbogart wrote:A few points. One, if you'd like to relate this to the thread you should at the very least mention that in the debate Biden denied having misled the public on the timeline related to the Benghazi attacks. I know you'd like to insert your tin-foil hat conspiracy theories wherever possible, but at least tell us how your delusions relate to the topic at hand.

In particular, explain how Ryan's record demonstrates a concern with security.
Ryan and his House Republican colleagues voted repeatedly to cut millions in funding for diplomatic security, even as they criticize the administration for defense cuts in the sequestration deal that they also voted for.

http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2012/10 ... -vp-debate
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Re: Impressions of the VP debate

Postby pjbogart » Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:40 pm

You assert that Hillary Clinton refuses to be "thrown under the bus" and then cite completely irrelevant transcript from a State Department conference call.

Give me one shred of evidence, even the frailest thread, that Hillary Clinton is being "thrown under the bus."

If you believe in conspiracy theories for which you have no evidence, they are by definition "tin foil hat" conspiracies.
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Re: Impressions of the VP debate

Postby DCB » Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:46 pm

Super-wonk Ryan cited 'six studies' that backed up their budget plans. This is what the boy genius meant:
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/arc ... le/263541/

I guess blog posts and op-eds passes for serious research if you're the type of person who reads 'powerline'.
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Re: Impressions of the VP debate

Postby Sandi » Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:48 pm

"tin foil hat"


I do have a lot to say on it, but like I said:

I DO NOT encourage trolls.
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Re: Impressions of the VP debate

Postby pjbogart » Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:35 pm

Sandi wrote:
"tin foil hat"


I do have a lot to say on it, but like I said:

I DO NOT encourage trolls.


In other words, you got nuthin'. That's what I thought.

Seriously, your assertion makes no sense. There doesn't appear to be any dispute at all between the White House and the State Department, yet somehow Hillary Clinton is refusing to be "thrown under the bus."

Here's my educated guess at how this whole timeline is ultimately drawn. Riots in Cairo over a controversial film uploaded to Youtube. Attack in Benghazi on US embassy, Ambassador killed. White House believes attack is related to video. State Department suspects that terrorists used unrest and confusion to launch attack. White House, aware that lax security could be a political liability sticks with video story until they get confirmation otherwise. State Department confirms that security concerns had been expressed through transcript of various cables, also concludes that coordinated attack on embassy could not be product of random mob. White House and State Department get together, streamline their story and decide to go with "we're still waiting for all of the facts." Congress calls State Department officials to testify, learns that State Department officials did not grant requests for heightened security due to political goal of normalization of security in Libya (more Libyan security forces, less American security forces). Career State Department employee takes fall, it remains unclear whether Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama were specifically aware of concerns.

Sandi, in Madison, Wisconsin, concludes that Obama is trying to throw Hillary Clinton "under the bus." Becomes angry that Paul asks her for some evidence.
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Re: Impressions of the VP debate

Postby Huckleby » Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:11 pm

Sandi wrote: Yes, but you are conveniently ignoring the timeline. The WH knew within 24hrs that it was an attack, and not a protest. One has to wonder where the YouTube protest contention came from, and it was never mentioned by the State dept or the security in Libya.


Ignore the "timelines" you have seen, they all come from FOX and other propogandists. Those timelines selectively edit quotes, and they omit any information that contradicts the cover-up narrative.

For instance, have you ever seen on any of those timelines the fact that the Arabic press was reporting the day after the Libyan incident that the attack began as a protest of the video, just like in Egypt, and as reported by the White House?

You state as fact that the WH knew within 24 hours that it was an attack, not a protest. This is just not true. Some lower-level intelligence sources have told FOX that they "knew" it was a terrorist attack, but the intelligence bureaucrats up the chain had a more mixed report, and they were the ones communicating with the WH. FOX headline on their website, "THEY KNEW"

IF you look at the transcript of Ambassador Rice's remarks, you see a far more ambiguous statement than is characterized by those timelines. Rice made clear that a planned terrorist attack was a possibility, but the best information was that extremist groups organized the attacks quickly after protests had started. Now, they had it wrong, but this is hardly "blaming the video", as the right wing is mischaracterizing.

The truth is going to come out. I'm sure the State Department screwed some things up, but the drumbeat of scandal from the right is garbage that has polluted the discussion. After the election, if anybody still cares, a sane, unpoliticized analysis will shine a light on any ineptitude.
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Re: Impressions of the VP debate

Postby Meade » Wed Oct 24, 2012 7:51 am

Huckleby wrote:You state as fact that the WH knew within 24 hours that it was an attack, not a protest. This is just not true.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/ ... 2C20121024
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Re: Impressions of the VP debate

Postby Huckleby » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:25 am

Meade wrote:
Huckleby wrote:You state as fact that the WH knew within 24 hours that it was an attack, not a protest. This is just not true.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/ ... 2C20121024


yes, they knew that there was an attack by militants, that's always been true. The uncertainty was what role the protest played. The fact that a particular militant group claimed responsbility is not the end of the investigation, it's an initial report.

The WH didn't know jack-shit after 24 hours. The situation was still confusing weeks later.

And BTW, the report that Susan Rice made on TV turns out to be mostly correct. The current CIA working understanding is that the attack was not highly planned. The group involved was extreme but not affiliated with Al Qaeeda. And a protest involving the film did occur - after the attack.

The right wing conspiracy theories are all, 100% garbage.
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Re: Impressions of the VP debate

Postby kurt_w » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:32 am

I doubt that anyone here shares Meade's obsession with microscopic parsing of who said what about Libya, but Kevin Drum has written up a nice summary of the facts:

The Benghazi Controversy, Explained
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Re: Impressions of the VP debate

Postby Meade » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:37 am

Kevin Drum didn't have the emails, did he?
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Re: Impressions of the VP debate

Postby kurt_w » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:42 am

Nothing in the emails changes anything, does it?
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Re: Impressions of the VP debate

Postby Meade » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:47 am

We'll see, won't we?
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Re: Impressions of the VP debate

Postby kurt_w » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:54 am

Uh, they're all posted at ABC News, and it only takes a minute or so to read them. Have you bothered to do so? I don't see anything that remotely contradicts Kevin's summary. So, from my perspective, we already have seen.

But YMMV, of course. If you think there's a big new scandal in the emails, feel free to promote it to your heart's content.
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Re: Impressions of the VP debate

Postby Stebben84 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:06 am

Regardless of the emails, if this was such a knock out cover up and potential presidential deal breaker, how come Mittens put his tail between his legs and said nothing about it?

Meade, maybe you should have joined his campaign to help out. You could have been a huge ASSet.
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