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Anybody else not going to vote anymore?

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: Anybody else not going to vote anymore?

Postby johnfajardohenry » Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:40 am

Henry Vilas wrote:That decision affirmed one person, one vote as a constitutional mandate. Stare decisis and all that.


Ever read the decision, Henry?

I don't think it says what you think it says.

Try reading it.

In any event, I do not say that there may not be some legal and perhaps even Constitutional obstacles to multiple voting. These would have to be overcome and it would take a massive support across a state and perhaps the US as a whole.

Part of this will be overcoming the myth that the US was founded as or ever intended to be a democracy.

This is why it is so critical that Obama not let this election slip away from him as it seems in danger of doing. We need to keep the pot on the boil, so to speak.

I still think that letting people who contribute more have more say in how the country is run is a splendid idea. Whatever the obstacles along the path might be.

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Re: Anybody else not going to vote anymore?

Postby johnfajardohenry » Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:44 am

nutria wrote:So how is this a problem for you? I wasn't aware that twelve-year-olds were allowed to vote.


If a state decided to give the vote to 12 year olds there would be no federal constitutional problem.

Just as many states gave women the right to vote prior to the 19th Amendment.

There is not even any federal prohibition on letting non-citizens vote. States can grant voting rights however they please.

They can't withold voting rights from certain groups, such as women, if otherwise qualified, of course.

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Re: Anybody else not going to vote anymore?

Postby Mean Scenester » Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:53 am

I'm with you, Kid C.

You definitely have no business voting.
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Re: Anybody else not going to vote anymore?

Postby Stebben84 » Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:57 am

johnfajardohenry wrote:I still think that letting people who contribute more have more say in how the country is run is a splendid idea.


Got cancer? Can't work? Well, fuck you, no extra votes.

Got married? Had kids? Staying at home to raise them? Well, fuck you, no extra votes.

Won the lottery? Pay a ton in taxes? Not working? Well, here's two more votes for you.

Retired? Not working? Paying little in taxes? Well, fuck you old man, no extra votes for you.

What's the word I'm thinking of...Hmmm. Oh yea, DUMB.
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Re: Anybody else not going to vote anymore?

Postby rabble » Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:19 am

I think it fits in well with several current trends. Corporations are people, money is speech, voting is a right. Therefore any corporation with a valid ID should not only be able to vote, they should be able to buy extra votes.

Although we'd still have a few rough edges to work out, like the fact that although they complain about taxes, they don't actually pay any. But that's just a little paper shuffling.
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Re: Anybody else not going to vote anymore?

Postby nutria » Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:25 am

johnfajardohenry wrote:
nutria wrote:So how is this a problem for you? I wasn't aware that twelve-year-olds were allowed to vote.


If a state decided to give the vote to 12 year olds there would be no federal constitutional problem.



Way to get the point.
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Re: Anybody else not going to vote anymore?

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:50 am

Huckleby wrote:
Francis Di Domizio wrote: Since most voters are told who the bad guy is by their major party of choice, they seem to miss that there really isn't a lot different between who they are told is the bad guy, and who is the "hero"


I can't believe that a sage political observor like yourself could make such a silly remark. It leads me to suspect that you are sending a tactical message, "go ahead and vote for the Green Party, wavering Obama supporters." Of course I am probably wrong.


You are wrong, I am by no means a sage political observor (or observer for that mater) and thus free to make all the silly remarks I want.

Huckleby wrote:I would bet my bank account that you yourself have never in your life voted for a third party candidate.


Dead on. I generally vote on character, judgement and my perception of how effective a candidate will be as a leader. I honestly see little difference in the candidates when you combine the 3 traits. I still think Obama has more character, and slightly better judgment, but his leadership of the democratic party, much less the country has been next to terrible. Given the choice of voting for the better of two poor choices, I'm definitely looking at the other options for the first time

Huckleby wrote:Anybody who follows Washington at all knows that now more than ever we are electing a party, not a person. The parties are voting almost entirely as a bloc in congress, especially the Republicans. The Republican and Demoratic parties present a stark choice. See the Paul Ryan budget.


The very fact that there is such a stark line between the parties only further makes me think we need to look at other options. I also don't buy the fact that they are far different. There is heck of a lot the President is responsible for beyond the budget. On foreign policy Obama fulfilled exactly 1 campaign promise, and that one he was late on. In exchange he has escalated conflicts throughout the Mideast, and is probably only getting a pass stateside because most of his killing involves drones, and not risking US troops directly.
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Re: Anybody else not going to vote anymore?

Postby kurt_w » Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:44 am

Francis Di Domizio wrote:On foreign policy Obama fulfilled exactly 1 campaign promise, and that one he was late on.


Good grief. Where did you get that claim from?

Obviously, different people will count things differently. But PolitiFact lists 73 campaign promises by Obama that fall under the category of foreign policy.

Of those, the largest number (28) they rate as "promises kept", along with 19 that are "in progress", and 11 as "compromise". Only 13 are rated as "stalled" and 12 as "broken".

So by that accounting, Obama has either kept, or made substantial progress on, 58 of 73 foreign-policy related campaign promises.

Again, it's possible to disagree about these. I suspect that Obama would challenge PolitiFact's classification of some of these, while his opponent would disagree with others.

Likewise, some of the promises are pretty small potatoes. But some of them represented important breaks from the GOP's policies (ending the Iraq War, abolishing torture, banning "extraordinary rendition", etc.) I think Obama deserves credit for those.
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Re: Anybody else not going to vote anymore?

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:15 pm

Sorry, I should have said major promises. I'm also not giving him credit for 6 separate promises related to getting the US out of Iraq.

I did miss "End Torture", so that's two. On the other hand he still has a base in Cuba full of detainees and no new method to deal with them legally.


be honest, do you care that much that Obama has successfully sought verifiable reductions in nuclear stockpiles, or would you be happier if he had actually strengthened the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) and doubled its budget in the over the last four years?
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Re: Anybody else not going to vote anymore?

Postby kurt_w » Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:36 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:I did miss "End Torture", so that's two. On the other hand he still has a base in Cuba full of detainees and no new method to deal with them legally


Again, as I said up-thread, Obama hasn't been perfect. But are you seriously suggesting that "Obama didn't reverse all of the stupid stuff the GOP did when they had power" is a good reason to bring the GOP back into power?

If Romney wins, his advisors are considering repealing Obama's executive order banning torture. I'm at a bit of a loss as to why someone would say "because Obama didn't close GTMO, I'm going to stand by and let Romney get elected". Not only is Romney going to keep GTMO open, his advisors are considering re-introducing waterboarding!

Maybe we need to start a thread on the immature political instincts of many progressives ... who all too easily fall into the "great man" mindset. (If we just elected the right guy, he'd fix everything through sheer force of will!) Note that I'm not referring to anyone in present company, this is a general observation over the past 12+ years. Yes, I'm a progressive myself, and yes, I often fall into this same mental trap.
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Re: Anybody else not going to vote anymore?

Postby Donald » Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:47 pm

kurt_w wrote: Maybe we need to start a thread on the immature political instincts of many progressives ... who all too easily fall into the "great man" mindset. (If we just elected the right guy, he'd fix everything through sheer force of will!) Note that I'm not referring to anyone in present company, this is a general observation over the past 12+ years. Yes, I'm a progressive myself, and yes, I often fall into this same mental trap.

I don't know about starting a thread, but this sums up the problem with too many of these "off-the-left-edge progressives." Also, they, like the people on the right, talk to themselves too much, and get too isolated from reality. My wife has been dealing with a bunch of progressive/libertarian nutcases on "chem-trails." These are the same discussion, basically, I used to have with the wacky right out West in the 1990s.

Talking to one of these "Obama is the same as Romney" progressives is like talking to the "Romney is the same as Obama" righties---a trip into mental masturbation. It's probably best these loony-tunes types don't vote.
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Re: Anybody else not going to vote anymore?

Postby Stella_Guru » Tue Oct 16, 2012 7:34 pm

Donald wrote:
kurt_w wrote: Maybe we need to start a thread on the immature political instincts of many progressives ... who all too easily fall into the "great man" mindset. (If we just elected the right guy, he'd fix everything through sheer force of will!) Note that I'm not referring to anyone in present company, this is a general observation over the past 12+ years. Yes, I'm a progressive myself, and yes, I often fall into this same mental trap.

I don't know about starting a thread, but this sums up the problem with too many of these "off-the-left-edge progressives." Also, they, like the people on the right, talk to themselves too much, and get too isolated from reality. My wife has been dealing with a bunch of progressive/libertarian nutcases on "chem-trails." These are the same discussion, basically, I used to have with the wacky right out West in the 1990s.

Talking to one of these "Obama is the same as Romney" progressives is like talking to the "Romney is the same as Obama" righties---a trip into mental masturbation. It's probably best these loony-tunes types don't vote.

Yes, afterall, in the mature world folks demanding economic democracy, peace and justice from this or any other president is just plain foolish. Democratic expectations are the province of the politically immature and unsophisticated. We should get realistic by dialing back our expectations. Its about rewarding Obama for his intentions; protecting the citadels of corporate power, advancing the imperial agenda, massacre of due process, advancing the corporatization of public schools..... Like the Reaganites, you two think Obama should enjoy a similiar kind of immunity from scrutiny as Reagan did.
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Re: Anybody else not going to vote anymore?

Postby Stella_Guru » Wed Oct 17, 2012 8:11 am

This era will probably be remembered as the age of passivity where the progressive/left became just another set of gate keepers, did not demand much of power, but in fact identified with it.
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Re: Anybody else not going to vote anymore?

Postby Donald » Wed Oct 17, 2012 10:45 pm

Stella_Guru wrote:
Donald wrote:
kurt_w wrote: Maybe we need to start a thread on the immature political instincts of many progressives ... who all too easily fall into the "great man" mindset. (If we just elected the right guy, he'd fix everything through sheer force of will!) Note that I'm not referring to anyone in present company, this is a general observation over the past 12+ years. Yes, I'm a progressive myself, and yes, I often fall into this same mental trap.

I don't know about starting a thread, but this sums up the problem with too many of these "off-the-left-edge progressives." Also, they, like the people on the right, talk to themselves too much, and get too isolated from reality. My wife has been dealing with a bunch of progressive/libertarian nutcases on "chem-trails." These are the same discussion, basically, I used to have with the wacky right out West in the 1990s.

Talking to one of these "Obama is the same as Romney" progressives is like talking to the "Romney is the same as Obama" righties---a trip into mental masturbation. It's probably best these loony-tunes types don't vote.

Yes, afterall, in the mature world folks demanding economic democracy, peace and justice from this or any other president is just plain foolish. Democratic expectations are the province of the politically immature and unsophisticated. We should get realistic by dialing back our expectations. Its about rewarding Obama for his intentions; protecting the citadels of corporate power, advancing the imperial agenda, massacre of due process, advancing the corporatization of public schools..... Like the Reaganites, you two think Obama should enjoy a similiar kind of immunity from scrutiny as Reagan did.

Get over yourself, and your silly "expectations." No leader is going to bring you economic democracy, peace and justice. At most our system is set up to take steps toward those goals, and with people like you not understanding the first thing about organizing for change, we will be lucky if we don't take steps backward. You don't think Obama is good enough for you, then vote for whatever alternative your little heart desires. You and your ilk are as big an obstacle to change as is Mitt Romney.
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Re: Anybody else not going to vote anymore?

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Wed Oct 17, 2012 11:40 pm

Donald wrote:Get over yourself, and your silly "expectations." No leader is going to bring you economic democracy, peace and justice. At most our system is set up to take steps toward those goals, and with people like you not understanding the first thing about organizing for change, we will be lucky if we don't take steps backward. You don't think Obama is good enough for you, then vote for whatever alternative your little heart desires. You and your ilk are as big an obstacle to change as is Mitt Romney.



There is never going to be an "Ideal" time to look at a third party candidate. Should we continue to accept the least bad candidate just because the other guys is just a touch worse? At what point is enough enough?

Are you really kidding yourself into believing Obama is any less beholden to big money than Romney? What part of sending robotic drones into sovereign nations make you think he's has more respect for other nations?

It's like you guys have spent the last 4 years ignoring his actions so you can keep believing he's the progressive president of your dreams rather than admit that he never was. To be honest I voted for him in the first place because he was clearly a moderate. But he's failed to lead his party, he's done a half as job leading the country, and I don't really see how giving him 4 more years is going to make a difference.

Not that I want Romney either. I'm just saying rather than blindly take one of the two puppets the major parties have decided on, how about more people look at what the other candidates have to say. I'd be shocked if a decent number of republicans wouldn't be more interested in what Gary Johnson or Virgil Goode had to say. Not that I expect a 3rd party candidate to win, or even get any electoral votes, but it be nice if the GOP and DNC felt that the voters might go elsewhere if they didn't start listening.
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