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The gun thread

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Re: The gun thread

Postby wack wack » Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:26 am

Dangerousman wrote:As for your belief that he'd be able to kill 2-3 with a knife and the rest would escape:

October 2008, Seoul, South Korea: 5 dead, 7 wounded, 4 seriously in a knife attack.

July 2008, Shanghai, China: 6 police officers stabbed to death, 4 wounded.

June 2008, Tokyo, Japan: 4 killed, 8 wounded with a knife.

March 2008, Sitka, Alaska: 18-year old kills 4 with a knife.

March 2008, Tsuchiura, Japan: 2 killed, 7 wounded by man with a knife.

May 2006, Berlin German: 41 wounded, 6 seriously by drunk 16-year old with a knife at train station.

September 2004, London, UW: Mentally ill man kills 4 and wounds 2 with a knife.

June 2001, Osaka, Japan: 8 dead, 15 wounded by Janitor with a kitchen knife.

Thanks for conceding that he could have taken a long gun in. Remember this was a big guy, could have easily taken a couple of long guns in concealed. If it had been a shotgun we'd be lucky to have any survivors.


Right. Let's completely discount the fact that the man's wife knew he was a problem and intercepted him, thus making it even more unlikely that a knife would've caused extensive carnage.

In all of your examples, how many of the victims were in a situation where they didn't know what was going on? Or, in the case of police officers, trying to approach and defuse a situation?

I do agree with your statement about the shotgun. Time to ban them.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby O.J. » Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:31 am

wack wack wrote:I do agree with your statement about the shotgun. Time to ban them.


Good luck getting this guy to agree with you.

http://fr.twitter.com/AShotgunGold
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Re: The gun thread

Postby jman111 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 11:34 am

Dman wrote:I try to avoid changing actual events into "what if" hypothetical situations, because one can always change it into whatever favors one's conclusions.



Dangerousman wrote:And in reality he probably could have caused an equal amount of carnage with a knife from his kitchen.

(As in, "What if he had a knife instead of a gun?")
Dangerousman wrote:If it had been a shotgun we'd be lucky to have any survivors.

(Or, "What if he had a shotgun?")
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:12 pm

Dangerousman wrote:As for your belief that he'd be able to kill 2-3 with a knife and the rest would escape:

October 2008, Seoul, South Korea: 5 dead, 7 wounded, 4 seriously in a knife attack.

July 2008, Shanghai, China: 6 police officers stabbed to death, 4 wounded.

June 2008, Tokyo, Japan: 4 killed, 8 wounded with a knife.

March 2008, Sitka, Alaska: 18-year old kills 4 with a knife.

March 2008, Tsuchiura, Japan: 2 killed, 7 wounded by man with a knife.

May 2006, Berlin German: 41 wounded, 6 seriously by drunk 16-year old with a knife at train station.

September 2004, London, UW: Mentally ill man kills 4 and wounds 2 with a knife.

June 2001, Osaka, Japan: 8 dead, 15 wounded by Janitor with a kitchen knife.


I see there's a stock list of cases to quote about non-gun attacks

Of course you fail to mention little tactical details such as in Seoul 2008, the attacker began by lighting the room in his low rent housing on fire and then stabbing people attempting to escape. Or that the attack on June 2008 Tokyo involved crashing a truck into a large crowd of shoppers then stabbing those who rushed to help the injured.

I assume in your 40 years of research, you learned how unimportant the tactical situation is to an event of this sort. Surely it doesn't matter that the attack in Brookfield was a completely different situation than the majority of the attacks in your stock list. Fuck, the Mentally ill gent in London took 3 days to kill 4 people across two cities. That's just like walking into a spa, killing your estranged wife and anyone else in the way in a short period of time.


And again, you failed to answer the actual question: Why shouldn't private sellers follow the same laws as dealers? Hell, I would get in more trouble for selling a bottle of Sudafed I brought over the counter than I would for selling a hand gun I owned.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby ilikebeans » Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:31 pm

If a knife can cause just as much damage as a gun, DMan, then surely all you need to conceal-carry to soothe your constant fear of attack is a decent blade, right?
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:08 pm

jman111 wrote:
Dman wrote:I try to avoid changing actual events into "what if" hypothetical situations, because one can always change it into whatever favors one's conclusions.



Dangerousman wrote:And in reality he probably could have caused an equal amount of carnage with a knife from his kitchen.

(As in, "What if he had a knife instead of a gun?")
Dangerousman wrote:If it had been a shotgun we'd be lucky to have any survivors.

(Or, "What if he had a shotgun?")


So you're disputing that knives aren't capable of an equal amount of carnage or that shotguns are more lethal than handguns?

Those seem like fairly obvious and non-controversial statements. By all means disagree if you wish, and why you're at it tell us that the earth is flat.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:11 pm

Dangerousman wrote:So you're disputing that knives aren't capable of an equal amount of carnage...

...than an automatic pistol or rifle with a large ammo clip?
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:13 pm

ilikebeans wrote:If a knife can cause just as much damage as a gun, DMan, then surely all you need to conceal-carry to soothe your constant fear of attack is a decent blade, right?


I have no "constant fear of attack." I have rarely feared an attack and even then only in response to a specific identifiable threat. But yes, I do carry a knife too. I have smoke alarms and fire extinguishers and a first aid kit. But I do not experience a constant fear of fire or injury. Do you?
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:14 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:So you're disputing that knives aren't capable of an equal amount of carnage...

...than an automatic pistol or rifle with a large ammo clip?


Did you look at the examples of knife attacks? You don't see a comparable amount of carnage to the Brookfield shooting in any of them?
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:19 pm

I was thinking of other gun massacres with many victims.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:21 pm

Dangerousman wrote:
Henry Vilas wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:So you're disputing that knives aren't capable of an equal amount of carnage...

...than an automatic pistol or rifle with a large ammo clip?


Did you look at the examples of knife attacks? You don't see a comparable amount of carnage to the Brookfield shooting in any of them?



I already pointed out that your examples had little in common with the Brookfield situation. Now if it had been a day care, or taken 3 days to complete your examples might have some relevance.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby ilikebeans » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:23 pm

Dangerousman wrote:I have smoke alarms and fire extinguishers and a first aid kit. But I do not experience a constant fear of fire or injury. Do you?

Oh please. Smoke alarms, fire extinguishers, and first aid kits in my home don't elevate the chance of death by homocide, suicide, or accident; rather, the exact opposite. (Unless, I suppose, I were to be looking straight into the extinguisher. But I'd still likely survive.)

And btw, do you really think the Aurora movie theater nutcase would have taken 12 people down and injured 58 others with a knife?

But hey, glad to hear you pack a knife as well. Is that just in case, what, someone wrestles your gun from you?
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:32 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:And again, you failed to answer the actual question: Why shouldn't private sellers follow the same laws as dealers? Hell, I would get in more trouble for selling a bottle of Sudafed I brought over the counter than I would for selling a hand gun I owned.


You haven't described your "state" training either. Sudafed? If I came to your house you couldn't sell me a bottle without getting into trouble? I doubt that, unless you are running a retail establishment out of your home and even then you'd only get in trouble if you weren't following the laws that apply to the retail sale of pseudoephedrine. Retail means selling to the public, not just a private transaction between two individuals. You can't sell it to someone under 18. I'm at least that old I assure you. Retailers of guns have licenses to deal in guns and follow regulations concerning it too. Private owners of guns, at least in this state, can't sell to someone under 18 and can't knowingly sell to someone who is prohibited from possessing a firearm. I'd say the penalties for doing either are severe enough.
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Dangerousman » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:35 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:I was thinking of other gun massacres with many victims.


Well since I said an equal amount of carnage with the Brookfield shooting. So do you agree with me on that or are you just trying to change the subject?
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Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:37 pm

You claim that knives can cause the same carnage as guns. Or are you backing away from that now?
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