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Romney Believers

Races for the Senate, U.S. House, etc. and other issues of national importance.

Re: Romney Believers

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:52 pm

Most Americans don't believe Obama has religious faith. Although, unlike me, most Americans are just too polite and charitable to say it.

Do you "know" this because you have ESP? Or did your astrologer tell you so?
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Re: Romney Believers

Postby Meade » Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:17 pm

Bland wrote:So I'll ask again. Do you make a habit of doubting people's proclaimed faith? If so, why? If not, why Obama?

No.
Because he's a politician trying to hold on to government power.
Bland wrote:I've never heard any atheist anywhere say anything like these quotes. Have you?

Look up "implicit atheism", "weak atheism", and "soft atheism".

Hey, I could be mistaken. If you believe Obama has religious faith, do you believe he believes in the creationist view that God created humans in their present form at one time within the last 10,000 years - the most popular American belief? Or do you think Obama believes that humans evolved, but with God's guidance? Or that he believes humans evolved, but that God had no part in the process?
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Re: Romney Believers

Postby Kenneth Burns » Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:39 pm

I think President Obama is a liberal Christian. That's what I take from his involvement with the United Church of Christ, the most liberal of the mainline Protestant denominations.
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Re: Romney Believers

Postby Meade » Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:43 pm

Kenneth Burns wrote:I think President Obama is a liberal Christian. That's what I take from his involvement with the United Church of Christ, the most liberal of the mainline Protestant denominations.

Then he probably believes humans evolved, but that God had no part in the process?
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Re: Romney Believers

Postby Kenneth Burns » Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:47 pm

I doubt he believes the scripture is inerrant.
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Re: Romney Believers

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:51 pm

Then he probably believes humans evolved, but that God had no part in the process?

Why is this your litmus test?
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Re: Romney Believers

Postby Galoot » Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:25 pm

It is his litmus test, because he would just LOVE to be able to catch us liberals out in a case of hypocrisy--supporting Obama when he is actually a creationist.

Sorry, Meade, your schadenfreude will have to be popped back into the freezer until a later date. Hope it has a LONG shelf life, it'll need it after Tuesday.

So, the UCC's belief about evolution:
Evolution helps us see our faithful God in a new way. Our creator works patiently, calling forth life through complex processes spanning billions of years and waiting for us to awaken and respond in conscious participation in God's own overarching dream for all living things. Evolution also helps us see ourselves anew, as creatures who share a common origin with other species. Today we know that human bodies and brains share the same genetic and biochemical processes with other creatures, not just mammals but insects, plants, and bacteria. How then should we understand ourselves as evolved creatures, sharing much of our DNA with other species, and at the same time as distinct creatures in the image of God?


From http://www.ucc.org/not-mutually-exclusi ... letter.pdf
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Re: Romney Believers

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:21 pm

I neither know nor care what Obama's actual religious beliefs are. Admittedly, nothing would make me happier than having the opportunity to vote for a viable Presidential candidate who was an atheist, but since there's more prejudice aimed at atheists seeking higher office than any other minority, I know I probably won't get the chance any time soon.

To my ears, Obama has invoked God and religion more than just about any other candidate in recent memory, and it annoys me every time. Reading the quotes upthread really ticks me off. But the reality is that the vast majority of Americans are believers and being a reasonable person who understands that politics involves compromise, I don't expect a Presidential candidate to reflect all my personal views. As long as he (generally) maintains the separation of church and state, and doesn't take the modern conservative tack of actively denying well-established scientific facts, I don't care enough to get my panties in a bunch over the details of his evolutionary beliefs or waste too much time wondering exactly how theistic or not he is. I certainly see no reason to think he believes evolution is false, which is more than I can say for so many of the Republican candidates these days, a situation which is as sad as it is frightening given that denial of science is probably the biggest reason America is beginning to trail behind the rest of the modern world.

Almost as sadly, once again we've let Meade derail another thread -- who still hasn't provided a shred of evidence to back up his contention that Obama is an atheist -- with pure idiocy and pathetic attempts at Gotcha Questions.
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Re: Romney Believers

Postby pjbogart » Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:26 pm

MATTHEW 7:1-5:

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull the mote out of thine eye; and behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother's eye.


Questioning the President's Christian "bona fides" or attempting to label some Christian beliefs as superior or inferior to each other seems wholly contradictory to the teachings of Christ. I think that people of faith should be wary of casting aspersions on others when they have so many flaws of their own.

While I don't believe that this passage from Matthew or another oft quoted Bible verse, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" compel Christians to be completely non-judgemental, I do believe that they serve as warnings to the overly pious. Are you really in the best position to judge your fellow man? Are you really so devoid of sin as to serve as your brother's judge?

Barack Obama says that he is a Christian. I'm not sure what gives any of us the right to question that assertion.
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Re: Romney Believers

Postby bdog » Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:41 pm

pjbogart wrote: Are you really in the best position to judge your fellow man? Are you really so devoid of sin as to serve as your brother's judge?

I take that as another knock on the top ten foron thread.
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Re: Romney Believers

Postby Meade » Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:53 pm

Galoot wrote:It is his litmus test, because he would just LOVE to be able to catch us liberals out in a case of hypocrisy--supporting Obama when he is actually a creationist.

Sorry, Meade, your schadenfreude will have to be popped back into the freezer until a later date. Hope it has a LONG shelf life, it'll need it after Tuesday.

So, the UCC's belief about evolution:
Evolution helps us see our faithful God in a new way. Our creator works patiently, calling forth life through complex processes spanning billions of years and waiting for us to awaken and respond in conscious participation in God's own overarching dream for all living things. Evolution also helps us see ourselves anew, as creatures who share a common origin with other species. Today we know that human bodies and brains share the same genetic and biochemical processes with other creatures, not just mammals but insects, plants, and bacteria. How then should we understand ourselves as evolved creatures, sharing much of our DNA with other species, and at the same time as distinct creatures in the image of God?


From http://www.ucc.org/not-mutually-exclusi ... letter.pdf


It isn't my litmus test - it's Professor Wagstaff's litmus test: People who believe that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe are the creation of a supernatural being (God) suffer from a lack of reason that leads to political support for politicians like Romney.

I don't care about anyone's hypocrisy but my own, Galoot. If you want to support for reelection to the presidency someone who purports to believe that humanity, life (including evolution), the Earth, and the universe are the creation of a supernatural being (God), please feel free. And if doing so would make you feel hypocritical because you would be voting for someone who you believe suffers from a lack of reason and a tendency to dismiss evidence, well, I honestly don't care. Maybe your spiritual advisor will.
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Re: Romney Believers

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:01 pm

Meade wrote:It isn't my litmus test - it's Professor Wagstaff's litmus test: People who believe that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe are the creation of a supernatural being (God) suffer from a lack of reason that leads to political support for politicians like Romney.

I already admitted it wasn't that simple, given that 41% of Democrats who don't believe in evolution. I backed away from any claim of correlation in my respone to Galoot way back on page one.
It's an American problem, not a political one.
I just initially thought it was interesting how close the percentages were between Romney supporters and evolution deniers.

Please try to keep up or, preferably, just shut up. You contribute nothing.
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Re: Romney Believers

Postby bdog » Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:02 pm

Meade wrote:It isn't my litmus test - it's Professor Wagstaff's litmus test: People who believe that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe are the creation of a supernatural being (God) suffer from a lack of reason that leads to political support for politicians like Romney.

Meade, no. Wag's litmus test is only for a subset of the batshit insane crowd - namely those who believe in creationism and reject evolution.

Now it seems to me that is small potatoes at that point. Reminds me of my grade school buddy who turned to me after a particular scene halfway through Star Wars and said "That would never happen".
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Re: Romney Believers

Postby Meade » Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:11 pm

Prof. Wagstaff wrote:It's an American problem, not a political one.

Yeah. That's the problem with America: Americans.
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Re: Romney Believers

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:14 pm

bdog wrote:those who believe in creationism and reject evolution.
All creationists reject evolution by definition. Creationism is the belief that all animals and human beings were created by God in essentially the same forms we see today. Didn't we go through this already at the top of the thread?

bdog wrote:Now it seems to me that is small potatoes at that point.
I think there's quite a large distinction between someone who believes in God and science, and someone who pretty much rejects science completely. And I'm kinda confused why you don't think there's much difference.
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