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Did G.O.P. get message on Immigration?

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Did G.O.P. get message on Immigration?

Postby Huckleby » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:15 pm

I've been listening carefully to Republican pundits and pols to see if they have processed the spanking they just received from Hispanic voters. They all recongize that the party has to change, but they think that change just means putting lipstick on a pig.

Charles Krauthammer offered the only substance: the Republicans have to consider Amnesty for illegals. Wow, that caught my ear. But then he later throws in aside, "it will be amnesty short of citizenship."
Jesus Christ. :lol: The 12 million illegals get to stay here without harassment, but they are permanent non-voters until death does them part. Lovely "compromise" there Charles.

Most of the right wing pundits think that putting Marco Rubio on next ticket will be the magic trick. First of all, Mexican immigrants are not idiots, they aren't going to instantly indentify with a right-wing Cuban from Florida. But more to the point, the Republican's "deep hispanic bench" are right-wing pols who offer jack shit on immigration: Marco Rubio of Florida, Gov Susana Martinez of New Mexico, and Senator Ted Cruz of Texas. Rubio and Cruz are Tea Party guys. Martinez is better but still harsh on illegals - no drivers license for you!

The Republicans appear, at least at this juncture, to be screwed, and they are misreading the landscape. Some of the Republicans get that the jig is up, famously Jeb Bush in Florida, but most of them think they can have it both ways.

The Dems have their boots on the Republicans throats on this issue. They should drive a hard bargain: A path to citizenship for all 12 million illegals is part of any compromise. If the Republicans balk - goody, lets have a big messy fight. That hands the presidency to Hillary in 2016, and we can try again.
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Re: Did G.O.P. get message on Immigration?

Postby Igor » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:23 pm

This is an honest question, and not an attempt to flame. One day after instant citizenship, there will be new illegal aliens. Are we just going to do this annually? If so, why bother regulating immigration? If anything, potential immigrants that have chosen to obey our laws should have just as much of a chance to come here.

In addition, immigration policies should be similar regardless of where someone is coming from. I don't understand why immigrants that happen to arrive from next door should have a leg up. There are other nations that have people that would love to move here.
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Re: Did G.O.P. get message on Immigration?

Postby Huckleby » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:31 pm

Igor wrote:This is an honest question, and not an attempt to flame. One day after instant citizenship, there will be new illegal aliens. Are we just going to do this annually? .

This is a very reasonable point given the history of Amnesty.

If people are serious about controlling illegal immigration, the big fix is not a big fence, although that can certainly be part of compromise. Most illegals come here legally, they don't swim the Rio Grande.

The key to controlling illegals is to have a better system of identification, and strong laws for employers. There has to be a lot of that stuff built into the compromise.

Also, citizenship will not be instant.

Igor wrote:In addition, immigration policies should be similar regardless of where someone is coming from. I don't understand why immigrants that happen to arrive from next door should have a leg up. There are other nations that have people that would love to move here.

The same policy will apply to all illegals. It just happens that most (by far) illegals come from Mexico and Central America.
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Re: Did G.O.P. get message on Immigration?

Postby Mad Howler » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:42 pm

Igor wrote:This is an honest question, and not an attempt to flame. One day after instant citizenship, there will be new illegal aliens. Are we just going to do this annually? If so, why bother regulating immigration? If anything, potential immigrants that have chosen to obey our laws should have just as much of a chance to come here.

In addition, immigration policies should be similar regardless of where someone is coming from. I don't understand why immigrants that happen to arrive from next door should have a leg up. There are other nations that have people that would love to move here.


Igor I agree. We lost some back across the pond at my firm owing mainly to immigration difficulties. I also have neighbors and family in this country derived from neighboring countries that are contributing solidly. What is your real point?
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Re: Did G.O.P. get message on Immigration?

Postby Igor » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:52 pm

Huckleby wrote:The key to controlling illegals is to have a better system of identification, and strong laws for employers. There has to be a lot of that stuff built into the compromise.


I have no problem with putting some of the onus on employers. I'm just trying to think of what sort of system of identification will be acceptable to the more liberal members of congress.
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Re: Did G.O.P. get message on Immigration?

Postby Igor » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:58 pm

Mad Howler wrote:
Igor wrote:In addition, immigration policies should be similar regardless of where someone is coming from. I don't understand why immigrants that happen to arrive from next door should have a leg up. There are other nations that have people that would love to move here.


Igor I agree. We lost some back across the pond at my firm owing mainly to immigration difficulties. I also have neighbors and family in this country derived from neighboring countries that are contributing solidly. What is your real point?


If we are going to have more open immigration, I think potential immigrants from all countries should have the same chance. I don't think that immigrants from nearby countries should have an advantage.
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Re: Did G.O.P. get message on Immigration?

Postby Mad Howler » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:05 am

I don't nessessarily disagree with you. But I have to ask myself as well as you...
Why?
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Re: Did G.O.P. get message on Immigration?

Postby Detritus » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:09 am

Igor wrote:
Huckleby wrote:The key to controlling illegals is to have a better system of identification, and strong laws for employers. There has to be a lot of that stuff built into the compromise.


I have no problem with putting some of the onus on employers. I'm just trying to think of what sort of system of identification will be acceptable to the more liberal members of congress.

First of all, they're not "illegals." It is not illegal to be in the country without valid documentation. Second, seriously, think through the ID question and then ask again about what would be acceptable to whom. The only truly effective way to use ID cards (or the equivalent) to identify undocumented immigrants is to require them for citizens. The people making the big noise against a national ID card are not, as far as I have seen, the more liberal members of congress.

If you really want to get a handle on immigration, step 1 is to stop treating immigration as a crime and immigrants as criminals. Step 2 is to stop turning so many other countries into failed narco-states, which means putting an end to the war on drugs and the position of weapons as America's #1 export. Step 3 is to rework NAFTA and related treaties so that low-wage countries aren't treated as the prison labor of the United States financiers. If life in their home countries is safer, healthier, and more lucrative, they will have less reason to come here.

Not that I, personally, have any problem with more people coming here. But I would prefer that people come here willingly, not forced through trafficking or driven by desperation. And once they're here, I have no problem with them earning citizenship if they want it. For me this issue is exactly parallel with gay marriage: it doesn't harm me or my community--on the contrary, it strengthens society.
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Re: Did G.O.P. get message on Immigration?

Postby snoqueen » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:17 am

Canada has an interesting and relatively open immigration system where applicants have to accumulate points toward citizenship. Points are awarded on job skills and readiness, knowing more than one language (Canada being bilingual) and other relevant qualities they are seeking in new citizens. Asylum for people persecuted in their home countries is included.

They're doing great attracting skilled and motivated new citizens from all over. Saskatchewan is so multi-ethnic it's hard to believe, for instance. Saskatchewan?? And Vancouver is pretty much part of Asia as far as the population goes.

Once we deal with the needs of the Mexican immigrants already within our borders, we could go to something like the Canadian system.
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Re: Did G.O.P. get message on Immigration?

Postby pjbogart » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:19 am

Igor wrote:This is an honest question, and not an attempt to flame. One day after instant citizenship, there will be new illegal aliens. Are we just going to do this annually? If so, why bother regulating immigration? If anything, potential immigrants that have chosen to obey our laws should have just as much of a chance to come here.

In addition, immigration policies should be similar regardless of where someone is coming from. I don't understand why immigrants that happen to arrive from next door should have a leg up. There are other nations that have people that would love to move here.


I don't know of anyone, including immigrant rights groups, who are proposing blanket amnesty, much less instant citizenship, for all illegal aliens. The problem that the GOP is having with immigration (and the Hispanic vote) is that they are relentlessly demonizing Hispanics, and that's not meant as a flame, just a simple fact. The GOP has a real problem on its hands. How can they soften their stance on undocumented aliens when they've spent so much time portraying them as this huge drag on our economy and nation?

Stop and think about the Dream Act opposition for a moment. Here you have a proposal that children who are brought to America at a young age, speak English, have no criminal record, graduate from high school and go on to either college or to serve in the military should be granted citizenship. Sounds reasonable, right? Not to Republicans. And I'm not even suggesting that politicians share this seething hatred, but they respond to their base, regardless of how irrational it is. And I'm also not trying to excuse them because much of that vitriol was born in their own mouths. The spiraling scapegoating has been a political circle-jerk, with politicians working up their constituents who, in turn, work up the politicians.

But it's time to end the madness. Someone within the Republican Party who still retains a lot of power needs to step up and attempt to soften the rhetoric. And he needs to have a host of supporters behind him to avoid him simply becoming a casualty of the runaway Tea Party monster. It's really not an option, you can either embrace Hispanic immigrants or you can fade into obscurity. Not that it would bother me.
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Re: Did G.O.P. get message on Immigration?

Postby Huckleby » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:19 am

Detritus wrote:First of all, they're not "illegals." It is not illegal to be in the country without valid documentation.

I could be wrong, but I think technically it is illegal to be here without valid documentation, however it is not a crime. Administrative law still counts as a law. But hey, I'm not a lawyer, I just play one in the forum.

I think your real point is that it is harmful to the cause to use the phrase "illegals." I get the argument, maybe you are right. To me, the word "undocumented' is just a little too precious, smells of the weasle. I think it is better to defang the "illegal" word by openly conceding the obvious, that undocumented people are breaking our laws. As an advocate for illegals, I'm sending message that there are issues bigger than their technical status.

Maybe I chose the wrong strategy, but it makes sense to me.
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Re: Did G.O.P. get message on Immigration?

Postby Igor » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:24 am

Mad Howler wrote:I don't nessessarily disagree with you. But I have to ask myself as well as you...
Why?


Because someone from Mexico is no more or less deserving of citizenship than someone from Chile or Nigeria or Indonesia or Belarus. There are hard workers in all of those countries that will help grow our economy too.
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Re: Did G.O.P. get message on Immigration?

Postby Huckleby » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:29 am

pjbogart wrote:But it's time to end the madness. Someone within the Republican Party who still retains a lot of power needs to step up and attempt to soften the rhetoric. And he needs to have a host of supporters behind him to avoid him simply becoming a casualty of the runaway Tea Party monster. It's really not an option, you can either embrace Hispanic immigrants or you can fade into obscurity. Not that it would bother me.


The Republicans have a big problem: even if most of the poltical leaders soften the rhetoric, they can't control the Rush Limbaughs of the world. Once the concrete steps are attempted to pass legislation, the right wingers are back at it.

It's a bloodletting the Republicans have to face. If I were them, I'd rip the bandaid off quickly.
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Re: Did G.O.P. get message on Immigration?

Postby Igor » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:32 am

Detritus wrote:The only truly effective way to use ID cards (or the equivalent) to identify undocumented immigrants is to require them for citizens. The people making the big noise against a national ID card are not, as far as I have seen, the more liberal members of congress.


I'm sure there could be some compromise. You could require the card to both get a job and vote. That way, there is something for both sides to gripe about.
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Re: Did G.O.P. get message on Immigration?

Postby Huckleby » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:32 am

snoqueen wrote:Once we deal with the needs of the Mexican immigrants already within our borders, we could go to something like the Canadian system.

Ya, their system sounds fine. Canada has always had open immigration because they are cold and depopulated.
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