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Monovox guitarist, Paul Heenan, Killed by Madison Police

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Re: Monovox guitarist, Paul Heenan, Killed by Madison Police

Postby Dangerousman » Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:26 pm

I find it rather fascinating to compare reactions to the Martin/Zimmerman shooting to this one. Other than myself, not too many people were calling on withholding accusations until the facts were in for Zimmerman. Not too many people where seeing it as a horrible thing for Zimmerman also.

Anyway, Meade does puzzle me with his comments about Sno's posting. It looks like it got dragged in from another thread, and it appears to me that she's just grappling with some feelings and wishful thinking and admits it to be the case. For this reason she asks people NOT to "run with it." Yet, that's exactly what happened. She didn't say she was stating facts or even suggest that she's predicting what facts will come out. If I read her correctly she is saying that emotionally she'd deal with this shooting better if the blame could be directed at the effects of some substance rather than at the character any of the people involved. If I'm misreading that, then feel free to correct me, Snoqueen. But I'm going to try to redirect this back onto topic---

Not many facts have been made public.

We know:

1) Heenan was unarmed.
2) Heimsness claims that Heenan appeared to be trying to get Heimsness's gun.

Under self-defense law in Wisconsin:

1) A threat of deadly force or use of deadly force can only be used when one has a reasonable belief that he or she, or another person, is in danger of imminent death or great bodily harm.
2) A "reasonable belief" in this context boils down to whether you can get others-- i.e., the prosecutor in making a decision to charge, or the jury, if the prosecutor has decided to charge-- to see it the same way that you saw it--or claim to have seen it-- if they were placed in similar circumstances.
3) As tempting as it is for many people to look at the previous "roughing the passer calls" against Heimness, those previous incidents are irrelevant to whether he was justified in shooting. The justification for shooting can only be judged on the facts of this particular incident. His employer may make an employment decision based on the totality of his employment record, but that's a separate issue.

Uncertain or disputed facts:

I've seen suggestions elsewhere that Heenan was not particularly close to Heimness or actually engaged in a physical struggle with him at the time he was shot. Based on witness testimony and forensic ballistic testing there's a good chance there will be enough evidence to settle that question.

In case you're wondering:

Can you justifiably shoot an unarmed person under the law? Yes, sometimes but not all the time.

Was the pocketknife found in Heenan's pocket relevant? Highly unlikely. They could have found a pistol in Heenan's pocket and it would have not changed anything, legally. The reasonableness (and therefore, justification) of your actions while defending yourself have to be based on the beliefs held at the moment-- not on facts discovered afterwards.

I've been told (by police officers) that the way they see it, anyone trying to take your gun away ought to automatically be considered a deadly threat and shot, because it's reasonable to believe that they intend to use the gun against you. And it's foolish to wait around to verify their intention.

Is it possible that Heenan's actions were benign and simply misinterpreted? Absolutely. But the law recognizes that mistakes can be made and there still be a justifiable use of force. Honest mistakes are ok, but negligent mistakes are not. An honest mistake goes back to the definition of "reasonable" as discussed above: i.e., ordinary people would say to themselves, "Hey if that had been me, I would have thought the same thing."

My opinion? Justifiable killing, while unpleasant for everyone, are unavoidable and might as well be accepted as part of life. I would be concerned about anyone who takes too great of pleasure in its occurrence.

Mistaken killing will happen and when it does, it is indeed a tragic situation. Tragedy is an inescapable component of life and something that ought to enhance our sense of value for life.

Negligent killings are both tragic and criminal.

It goes without saying that intentional criminal killing of another person is even further beyond the pale.

I know, there are plenty of people who think there simply ought to be no killing of any kind. Sure, in a perfect world... but wish in one hand and...
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Re: Monovox guitarist, Paul Heenan, Killed by Madison Police

Postby Bland » Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:45 pm

Dangerousman wrote:I find it rather fascinating to compare reactions to the Martin/Zimmerman shooting to this one. Other than myself, not too many people were calling on withholding accusations until the facts were in for Zimmerman. Not too many people where seeing it as a horrible thing for Zimmerman also.
Big difference: Zimmerman was not a police officer responding to a 911 call.
Zimmerman shouldn't have been where he was, doing what he was doing. Officer Heimsness most definitely should have been.
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Re: Monovox guitarist, Paul Heenan, Killed by Madison Police

Postby Meade » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:00 pm

Bland wrote:Big difference: Zimmerman was not a police officer responding to a 911 call.
Zimmerman shouldn't have been where he was, doing what he was doing. Officer Heimsness most definitely should have been.

Big similarity: Trayvon Martin, Paul Heenen, and Justice Ann Walsh Bradley all rushed aggressively at the respective individuals who were then accused of using, in self-defense, too much force.
Another big similarity: Liberals, out of irrational sentimental sympathy, rush to judgement in defense of the aggressor and condemnation of the self-defender.
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Re: Monovox guitarist, Paul Heenan, Killed by Madison Police

Postby oranger » Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:02 pm

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Re: Monovox guitarist, Paul Heenan, Killed by Madison Police

Postby massimo » Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:07 pm

Thank you, oranger.
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Re: Monovox guitarist, Paul Heenan, Killed by Madison Police

Postby Dangerousman » Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:41 pm

Bland wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:I find it rather fascinating to compare reactions to the Martin/Zimmerman shooting to this one. Other than myself, not too many people were calling on withholding accusations until the facts were in for Zimmerman. Not too many people where seeing it as a horrible thing for Zimmerman also.
Big difference: Zimmerman was not a police officer responding to a 911 call.
Zimmerman shouldn't have been where he was, doing what he was doing. Officer Heimsness most definitely should have been.


This isn't the place to rehash the details of Zimmerman. One responded to a 911 call and the other made the 911 call, but legally ZERO difference in their right to be there and their right to self-defense.
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Re: Monovox guitarist, Paul Heenan, Killed by Madison Police

Postby Bland » Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:45 pm

Dangerousman wrote:This isn't the place to rehash the details of Zimmerman.
Sez the guy who used this place to rehash the details of Zimmerman.
Dangerousman wrote: One responded to a 911 call and the other made the 911 call

Pretty fucking significant difference.
Dangerousman wrote:but legally ZERO difference in their right to be there and their right to self-defense.
There's a pretty huge gap between having a right to be somewhere doing something, and having a reason to be somewhere doing something.
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Re: Monovox guitarist, Paul Heenan, Killed by Madison Police

Postby Meade » Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:00 pm

pjbogart wrote:In some ways, I think two men died that night. Paul Heenan died, he was the 20 year-old I knew who seemed offended when I suggested to him that Thom Yorke's greatest asset was his originality and his ear, because his vocal control seemed suspect at times.

For the record, Paul Heenan was a 30 year-old, not a 20 year-old.
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Re: Monovox guitarist, Paul Heenan, Killed by Madison Police

Postby rrnate » Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:11 pm

Meade wrote:
pjbogart wrote:In some ways, I think two men died that night. Paul Heenan died, he was the 20 year-old I knew who seemed offended when I suggested to him that Thom Yorke's greatest asset was his originality and his ear, because his vocal control seemed suspect at times.

For the record, Paul Heenan was a 30 year-old, not a 20 year-old.


For the record, your reading comprehension is about as shitty as your personality.
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Re: Monovox guitarist, Paul Heenan, Killed by Madison Police

Postby pjbogart » Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:22 pm

oranger wrote:Here is a nice article.

http://blogs.citypages.com/gimmenoise/2 ... locher.php


Thanks for that link and thanks to Reed Fischer for the article and uploaded pics.

Image

Ever have troubles stretching your fingers for a difficult chord? Paulie didn't. And that hair. Vintage Paulie. There are a few pics that seem from different points in his life, but this is how I remember him.
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Re: Monovox guitarist, Paul Heenan, Killed by Madison Police

Postby Dangerousman » Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:13 pm

Bland wrote:
Dangerousman wrote:This isn't the place to rehash the details of Zimmerman.
Sez the guy who used this place to rehash the details of Zimmerman.
Dangerousman wrote: One responded to a 911 call and the other made the 911 call

Pretty fucking significant difference.
Dangerousman wrote:but legally ZERO difference in their right to be there and their right to self-defense.
There's a pretty huge gap between having a right to be somewhere doing something, and having a reason to be somewhere doing something.


Bullshit, moron. I didn't rehash details of Zimmerman, I pointed out the difference in people's reactions to the present case and Zimmerman's case. And you're welcome to explain what is a "fucking significant" difference in making a call and responding to it. Yeah, there's a difference, but an insignificant one. Zimmerman and Heimsness both had a right and a reason to be where they were at that moment, but you just enjoy throwing shit out there to pretend like you're actually saying something. Pretty much what I expect to hear from people who have limited ability to look at any issue objectively.
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Re: Monovox guitarist, Paul Heenan, Killed by Madison Police

Postby Mean Scenester » Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:38 pm

Dangerousman wrote:Bullshit, moron.

Wow, nothing like a local tragedy to really bring out the best in folks, huh?

I can't help, much as I might try, from pointing out that Zimmerman was told by police to stand down. So while he may have been within his legal rights to be where he was, arguably (and I'm being generous) he really shouldn't have been. Pretty much the opposite of what you're trying to argue was the case with the the officer here, who was called to the scene.

But seriously, can you maybe port your personal political agenda to a more relevant board? This one has been hijacked to hell and back already.
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Re: Monovox guitarist, Paul Heenan, Killed by Madison Police

Postby boston_jeff » Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:40 pm

3 shots...
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Re: Monovox guitarist, Paul Heenan, Killed by Madison Police

Postby Meade » Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:02 pm

of what?
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Re: Monovox guitarist, Paul Heenan, Killed by Madison Police

Postby Meade » Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:13 pm

Heenan had been at a couple of bars recruiting bands and was dropped off just after bartime, she said. Based on her friend’s level of confusion, Maurer said she assumes he was intoxicated.

“He was obviously very confused,” she said. “So are people with dementia, so are people who have psychotic episodes. These people do things that confuse us, and scare us, and resist help.
http://host.madison.com/news/local/crim ... z2C9Pp64TL

Is this right? Maurer seems to be saying that Heenan's alleged intoxication was the equivalent of dementia and psychosis. Why would anyone allow himself to become intoxicated to the level of dementia or psychosis?
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