MOBILE USERS: m.isthmus.com
Connect with Isthmus on Twitter · Facebook · Flickr · Newsletters · Instagram 
Friday, September 19, 2014 |  Madison, WI: 57.0° F  Fog/Mist
Collapse Photo Bar

Baldwin Street Shooting

If it's news, but not politics, then it goes here.

Re: Baldwin Street Shooting

Postby Prof. Wagstaff » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:16 pm

Maggie wrote:Mrs. Walter posted "I thank you" So you are clearly wrong because just as I had written she was thanking those who were defending her husbands actions.
No, she was clearly thanking "all those who have written from the heart." Nothing about defending or rationalizing, as you claimed.
Prof. Wagstaff
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 8867
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2002 6:35 pm

Re: Baldwin Street Shooting

Postby TheBookPolice » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:17 pm

Maggie wrote:
Mrs.Walter wrote:
snoqueen wrote: .... to all those who have written from the heart.

...I thank you.

As you can see Prof. Wagstaff, Mrs. Walter posted "I thank you" So you are clearly wrong because just as I had written she was thanking those who were defending her husbands actions.

Maggie, you're mistaken. Take a deep breath and read it again. She is thanking those who have written from the heart. Any interpretation that she is thanking people for "defending and rationalizing [a] brutal killing" is made in the eyes of the reader, not the writer.
TheBookPolice
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 8371
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:09 pm
Location: The mystical Far East

Re: Baldwin Street Shooting

Postby Kyle Motor » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:21 pm

I did not know Paul, but I have friends and bandmates who did and were devastated by this. Steve has been a good friend for some years now, but I do not take what happened lightly. I stayed away from commenting on this tragedy because I did not want to contribute to all the noise around it without something concrete to add, and I felt I could clear some air regarding Steve's character that was tarnished by the Lueder's article from August 2010. That editorial has bothered me since it was published.

Maggie wrote:To Kyle Motor - In America no criminal suspect deserves to be beaten the way Officer Heimsness beat, brutalized and humiliated Jacob Bauer.

I never said anyone should be beaten. I tried to point out that the Lueders article was an EDITORIAL. It should not be taken as factual, which it was by many local news outlets. Again, keep in mind that Bauer was violent and hurting people, that's how he got in trouble in the first place.

Maggie wrote:I don't care how horrible a person somebody is. We don't do this in America.

I'm not saying Bauer had anything coming for being a horrible person. He had a past of acting violently and he was doing it again and needed to be stopped. Lueders' article, which you seem to be taking as fact, only told one sensationalized side of the story.

Maggie wrote:You should be ashamed of yourself. I hope you reflect on what you wrote and offer an apology to those of us whom you have offended by your harsh comments.

I am not ashamed of myself, nor should I be. I don't believe my comments were harsh, and I did not wish any ill will towards anybody. I was showing some points that I felt were important to discourse on this subject. The only thing I wanted to attack with my post was Bill Lueders' credibility in the editorial that he wrote in 2010.
Kyle Motor
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3270
Joined: Tue Dec 03, 2002 1:48 pm
Location: Rock'n'roll crazy nights

Re: Baldwin Street Shooting

Postby Maggie » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:34 pm

Stebben84 wrote:
Maggie wrote:There are many of us in this
neighborhood who are scared. Not scared of criminals. We are scared of Officer Heimsness.


Just curious. Were you scared of him before this?


Yes, I was scared of him and other police officers before this incident and I am very scared now. In my opinion, he does not have the temperament necessary for a police officer. He is clearly a hot head who can not control his temper. While he may have been operating within the guidelines of the shoot to kill policy, in my opinion, he used very very poor judgment and at the very least he should be given a desk job if he is not kicked off the force.

And I don't give two hoots about Bauer' prior criminal record. That is totally irrelevant as to the way Heimsness beat him.

I have had guns pointed at me by Madison and Middleton police officers twice in my life. Both times over misunderstanding and mistaken identities. I would be happy to give you the details if you would like. In both cases if things went slightly different, if I had unintentionally moved in a certain way, had a bad attitude, got overly excited, I would be posting this from the other side.

I am making a personal crusade that the shoot to kill policy be ended and replaced with a more humane policy. The current policy can not stand. The next person killed by a cop may be your friend,kid or family member.

My anger notwithstanding, I have no personal animus towards Officer Heimsness. I am ready to forgive him once he asks for our forgiveness. But this man must never never be able to patrol our streets with gun ever again.
Maggie
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 138
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Near East Side Madison

Re: Baldwin Street Shooting

Postby Stebben84 » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:43 pm

Maggie wrote:Yes, I was scared of him and other police officers before this incident


Do you have names of others? Did you know about his encounters before and that you were in his district? I wonder if you are just afraid of ALL officers.

Maggie wrote:if I had unintentionally moved in a certain way


You mean as in reaching for his gun?
Stebben84
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 4840
Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:59 pm

Re: Baldwin Street Shooting

Postby Maggie » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:45 pm

I understand what you are trying to say BookPolice, but the people posting "from the heart" at that point in this thread are those saying that Heimsness is "an asset to the community" and would be welcome back into our neighborhood. I doubt she is thanking those who believe that Heimsness is not fit to be a police officer and is not welcomed in their neighborhood. No, she is looking for supporters of her husband because he is big trouble right now. I don't blame her for that but I would rather she asks for my forgiveness not for my approval of what he did.

And I am speaking from MY HEART!
Last edited by Maggie on Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Maggie
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 138
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Near East Side Madison

Re: Baldwin Street Shooting

Postby Uncle_Leaver » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:55 pm

Maggie wrote:I hardly think what I wrote is dragging her name through the mud and I have no desire to bring any more pain to this poor woman.

Yet that's precisely what you're doing when you insinuate that her husband is some out-of-control monster rather than a cop with a clean record (which is the simple fact of the matter, regardless of which eye witness account of the State Street Brats incident you want to believe) who was performing the dangerous job he was called upon to do and, by all preliminary accounts, following police protocol. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume if the suspect of the 911 call had disarmed Officer Heimsness and fatally shot him that you would be equally horrified by the situation. In return you should be fair to those of us who are friends of Steve Heimsness (who do not, mind you, merely consider him a cool cop but a real friend in or out of uniform and are not, in fact, "sentimentalizing" the man but speaking to our own experience) and understand that we are capable of feeling pain, sorrow and sympathy for Paul Heenan, his family, and loved ones despite that we may not have known him personally. And despite how you have chosen to characterize the officer, whom presumably you've never met, I can guarantee you he shares those same emotions, probably to a magnitude none of us can fully appreciate.

The investigation of this matter will not be complete for some time, and we should all try to refrain from assigning blame and engaging in incendiary language. But there was at least one eye witness to this event who was not one of the responding officers and by all accounts this appears to be one of those shitty situations where a number of unfortunate circumstances led to a grievously regrettable outcome. As hard as it is to deal with such ambiguity, that's what we should all attempt to do until all the facts are in.

A man is dead, and that's a horrible thing. The officer who fired the shots is suffering the consequences. It seems to me terribly vindictive for one not to be able to acknowledge both of those things, though I realize some degree of that is inevitable when folks are hurt and angry and unable to make sense of what would seem a senseless loss.

Maggie wrote:No, she is looking for supporters of her husband because he is big trouble right now. I don't blame her for that but I would rather she asks for my forgiveness not for my approval of what he did.

It would be inhuman of her not to appreciate the support she's received, but to suggest she's doing that here is simply unfounded. The woman posted but a sentence fragment on the matter. Moreover, this is someone who is dealing with this tragedy from her own perspective, but in no way is it incumbent upon her to seek anyone's forgiveness. To whatever degree she is suffering, she is an innocent casualty of circumstance.

And I am speaking from MY HEART!

You're not the only one who has one. I think it's safe to say that's what everyone is doing and has done, knee-jerk and measured responses alike.
Last edited by Uncle_Leaver on Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:02 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Uncle_Leaver
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 677
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:58 pm

Re: Baldwin Street Shooting

Postby Maggie » Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:56 pm

Stebben84 wrote:Do you have names of others? Did you know about his encounters before and that you were in his district? I wonder if you are just afraid of ALL officers.

I have made it a point to learn about Officer Heimsness' record over the years as an officer. I am a little afraid of all police officers because they have the legal power to kill me.

Maggie wrote:if I had unintentionally moved in a certain way


Stebben84 wrote:You mean as in reaching for his gun?

I do not like guns, have never owned a gun. Also, I am not nor have I ever been a criminal. But I have been around long enough to see how misunderstandings and poor judgement result in innocent people being killed by police officer. And I have had police officers pull guns on me and then joke how they would have killed me if I had not followed their orders exactly. (Middleton police officer 2007 in front of Walgreens in Middleton. He thought I was some drug addict trying to get drugs with a phony script even though I was there with my dog on a leash and my husband waiting in our car for me.)

I apologize. I am not trying to make this thread about me. I understand that some of you here are friends with Heimsness. It's great to stand up for a friend, but it should be done very carefully and with compassion for all the parties involved especially the one who is now dead.
Maggie
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 138
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Near East Side Madison

Re: Baldwin Street Shooting

Postby Toonces » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:01 pm

Maggie wrote:I don't give two hoots about Bauer' prior criminal record. That is totally irrelevant as to the way Heimsness beat him.


Two prior convictions of resisting arrest/obstructing has no relevance to one's actions, yet prior use of force has relevance to another one's actions... got it.
Toonces
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 305
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:39 pm
Location: Behind The Wheel

R, e: Baldwin Street Shooting

Postby Maggie » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:07 pm

Uncle_Leaver wrote:
Maggie wrote:I hardly think what I wrote is dragging her name through the mud and I have no desire to bring any more pain to this poor woman.

Yet that's precisely what you're doing when you insinuate that her husband is some out-of-control monster rather than a cop with a clean record...


See this is the problem Uncle_Leaver, Heimsness does not have a clean record. And I did not insinuate that her husband is some out-of-control monster. I said explicitly that he does not have the temperament necessary for a police officer, he is a hot head, and he exercised poor judgement.

I also wrote that I am ready to forgive him when he asks for my forgiveness. Please do not distort what I have written. Thanks.

Well, I am going to leave it there. Thanks for reading and listening to my opinion.
Maggie
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 138
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Near East Side Madison

Re: Baldwin Street Shooting

Postby rabble » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:08 pm

I don't have any good reason to get into this discussion since my only connection is how close I live to that house.

But I don't like the way everybody's piling on Maggie.
rabble
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 6157
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:50 pm

Re: Baldwin Street Shooting

Postby TheBookPolice » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:09 pm

Maggie wrote:I am not nor have I ever been a criminal.

Then have no fear, the police have no legal power to kill you.
TheBookPolice
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 8371
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:09 pm
Location: The mystical Far East

Re: Baldwin Street Shooting

Postby Maggie » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:11 pm

Toonces wrote:
Maggie wrote:I don't give two hoots about Bauer' prior criminal record. That is totally irrelevant as to the way Heimsness beat him.


Two prior convictions of resisting arrest/obstructing has no relevance to one's actions, yet prior use of force has relevance to another one's actions... got it.


Yep, you got it Toonces. Police brutality is NEVER JUSTIFIED! NEVER!
Maggie
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 138
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 12:39 pm
Location: Near East Side Madison

Re: Baldwin Street Shooting

Postby Toonces » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:23 pm

Forgot about that clean record then? Oh right, you never acknowledged that as fact.
Toonces
Forum Addict
 
Posts: 305
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 5:39 pm
Location: Behind The Wheel

Re: R, e: Baldwin Street Shooting

Postby Uncle_Leaver » Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:38 pm

Maggie wrote:See this is the problem Uncle_Leaver, Heimsness does not have a clean record.

To quote the Isthmus article:

Lt. Linda Kosovac, the MPD's head of professional standards and internal affairs, says the department's internal review, the details of which remain secret, found that the charge of excessive force was "not sustained." The case was also reviewed by the Dane County DA's office, which she says "determined there was not sufficient basis for any action" against the officers.

Settlement of a nuisance lawsuit because it's the cheaper alternative does not equate to a black mark on someone's record. Neither is a guilty verdict in the court of public opinion. I wasn't there. I don't know what exactly occurred. All I'm saying is that there are differing eye witness accounts of what happened and a certain contingent has apparently decided to ignore one of them. I'm simply trying to offer a little perspective and reason in this whole discussion, which I realize is quite likely a futile endeavor under the circumstances. I refrained from public comment for some time for that very reason. Hell, I had to edit my post above numerous times, I had such difficulty writing it.

And I did not insinuate that her husband is some out-of-control monster.

Well, that's my interpretation of your statement that you and your neighbors are "scared of Officer Heimsness." The man is currently inactive and I think it's safe to say he's not intent on preying upon the residents of your neighborhood, so it's difficult for me to read that and feel that it's a rational response.

Maggie, I understand that you are expressing your feelings and I'm not saying they are wrong. I'm simply offering my own in hopes that it might temper some of the anger and fear.

I respect that you have been shaken and saddened by this event. Believe me, I have too. But it bears repeating that many here (though admittedly not I) knew both the officer and the deceased. Perhaps, the best the rest of us can do is try to empathize with what those folks must be feeling right now and try to acknowledge, at least until more information comes to light, that sometimes life's events play out in hideous fashion for no other reason than that circumstance can be a curse as often as a blessing.

I'm really not trying to argue with you and I respect your feelings despite that I may not agree with how you've chosen to express them. Far be it from me to suggest there is a right response to something like this. There is only the reaction born of a given perspective. I'm just trying to offer my own. If it's not helpful at all, I hope you'll at least acknowledge that it's no less heartfelt than yours.
Uncle_Leaver
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 677
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:58 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Headlines

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

moviesmusiceats
Select a Movie
Select a Theater


commentsViewedForum
  ISTHMUS FLICKR

Promotions Contact us Privacy Policy Jobs Newsletters RSS
Collapse Photo Bar