MOBILE USERS: m.isthmus.com
Connect with Isthmus:         Newsletters 
Monday, December 22, 2014 |  Madison, WI: 36.0° F  Overcast with Haze
Collapse Photo Bar

The Sperm Count Crisis!

If it's news, but not politics, then it goes here.

Re: The Sperm Count Crisis!

Postby rabble » Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:33 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:
rabble wrote:So, let me see if I understand your line of reasoning.


Clearly you don't

Let me try again. :-)

The sperm crisis is bad because we're healing too many people.

How's that?
rabble
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 6536
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:50 pm

Re: The Sperm Count Crisis!

Postby ArturoBandini » Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:43 pm

This is a creepy thread. Kinda reminds me of the forced sterilization programs in many US states in the early 20th century. A better society, one snip at a time!
Francis Di Domizio wrote:So males with a medical condition don't have the same right to father children as other males?
No, both men have the same right to father a child, even if they don't have the same ability.
ArturoBandini
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2256
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:54 pm
Location: near west

Re: The Sperm Count Crisis!

Postby rabble » Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:49 pm

ArturoBandini wrote:This is a creepy thread. Kinda reminds me of the forced sterilization programs in many US states in the early 20th century. A better society, one snip at a time!

Why? Who's doing the snipping this time? Who's forcing us to have low sperm counts?
rabble
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 6536
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:50 pm

Re: The Sperm Count Crisis!

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:54 pm

Let me clarify since you still aren't anywhere close

I don't see a problem with the sperm crisis (though in reading the article it seems all of the test subject were in one European country, so I'm not totally sold on the "crisis" part of the sperm crisis)

My point was that
1) Not solving a medical issue because overall we like the end results for our population count, seems rather hypocritical given the other medical issues we work to solve that lead to the same results.
2) If we are going to look at the over all end results (in regards to over population or other societal issues) when deciding what medical issue to address, where do we draw the line?

Modern medicine is probably one of the leading factors (outside of the simple mathematical issue of more people having sex every generation) in our current population explosion. Suddenly deciding we've found that one problem that we shouldn't fix seems rather arrogant, not to mention a bit too late.
Francis Di Domizio
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2679
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:11 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI

Re: The Sperm Count Crisis!

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:57 pm

Just re-read you last response to me
rabble wrote:Let me try again. :-)

The sperm crisis is bad because we're healing too many people.

How's that?


Since you seem to like short summations,

how about:

If you are worried about overpopulation the sperm crisis is fine, and we're healing too many people.
Francis Di Domizio
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2679
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:11 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI

Re: The Sperm Count Crisis!

Postby rabble » Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:59 pm

Sorry. That still boils down to "The sperm crisis is bad because we're healing too many people."

You can pad it all you want but that's still your basic premise. You are equating sperm count with debilitating, life-threatening medical problems.
rabble
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 6536
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:50 pm

Re: The Sperm Count Crisis!

Postby wack wack » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:02 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:Let me clarify since you still aren't anywhere close

I don't see a problem with the sperm crisis (though in reading the article it seems all of the test subject were in one European country, so I'm not totally sold on the "crisis" part of the sperm crisis)

My point was that
1) Not solving a medical issue because overall we like the end results for our population count, seems rather hypocritical given the other medical issues we work to solve that lead to the same results.
2) If we are going to look at the over all end results (in regards to over population or other societal issues) when deciding what medical issue to address, where do we draw the line?

Modern medicine is probably one of the leading factors (outside of the simple mathematical issue of more people having sex every generation) in our current population explosion. Suddenly deciding we've found that one problem that we shouldn't fix seems rather arrogant, not to mention a bit too late.


1) If we like the end results then it's not really an issue, is it?

2) We draw the line at pre-birth vs. post-birth.

There is no moral dilemma here.
wack wack
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3192
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:32 pm

Re: The Sperm Count Crisis!

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:17 pm

rabble wrote:You can pad it all you want but that's still your basic premise. You are equating sperm count with debilitating, life-threatening medical problems.



1) I've never said the sperm count issue was bad
2) For purposes of over population (which you brought into the discussion) the two things may not be equal but are on the same side of the equation.

wack wack wrote:1) If we like the end results then it's not really an issue, is it?

2) We draw the line at pre-birth vs. post-birth.

There is no moral dilemma here.


1) It is to the potential fathers you just told to fuck off. Also anyone who thinks that reproduction is a right.

2) So let's start cutting prenatal care funding?
Francis Di Domizio
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2679
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:11 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI

Re: The Sperm Count Crisis!

Postby ArturoBandini » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:28 pm

rabble wrote:Why? Who's doing the snipping this time? Who's forcing us to have low sperm counts?
I said "kinda reminds me", not "is exactly the same as". The similarity is not in the phenomenon itself, but the reactions to it. Compare:

A: Our world will be a better place if people have fewer babies.
B: Our world will be a better place if ethnic minorities have fewer babies.

Since the data is hardly complete on the sperm-count crisis, it's a strong possibility that we'll discover that sperm-count reductions have not been distributed uniformly across racial and socioeconomic categories (because when is anything ever distributed equally across racial and socioeconomic categories?). Will you still be supportive of this phenomenon as a "good thing" if it disparately affects the poor? This would make Statement A approach Statement B in practice. And who's to say we're not "forcing" this to happen to anyone? What will your opinion be if the sperm-count crisis turns out to be the result of pollution, chemicals in processed food, or psychological stresses due to economic inequality?

I think the proper normative response (i.e. what should happen) to this sperm-count thing is to remain neutral until more data becomes available.
ArturoBandini
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2256
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:54 pm
Location: near west

Re: The Sperm Count Crisis!

Postby ArturoBandini » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:30 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:2) So let's start cutting prenatal care funding?
Hold on about 5 minutes, I need to get some popcorn before this continues.
ArturoBandini
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2256
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:54 pm
Location: near west

Re: The Sperm Count Crisis!

Postby rabble » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:31 pm

There certainly is a moral obligation to keep living people alive if you can.

There is no moral obligation at all to give a baby to everyone who wants one.
rabble
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 6536
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:50 pm

Re: The Sperm Count Crisis!

Postby ArturoBandini » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:35 pm

rabble wrote:There certainly is a moral obligation to keep living people alive if you can.

There is no moral obligation at all to give a baby to everyone who wants one.
The second statement can't be proven because it is a negative, but where do you get the first one? Are there are conditions on that statement?
ArturoBandini
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2256
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:54 pm
Location: near west

Re: The Sperm Count Crisis!

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:41 pm

rabble wrote:There is no moral obligation at all to give a baby to everyone who wants one.


Is there a moral obligation to use available medical resources to enhance a persons experience of life?

you might want to think a few minutes while Arturo gets his popcorn.
Francis Di Domizio
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2679
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:11 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI

Re: The Sperm Count Crisis!

Postby kurt_w » Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:05 pm

Actually, this whole thread has the potential to turn into a La Brea tar pit of epic proportions.

Future paleontologists will dig down through the tar and find all kinds of prehistoric 21st century forons buried here.
Last edited by kurt_w on Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
kurt_w
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 5401
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 3:11 pm

Re: The Sperm Count Crisis!

Postby wack wack » Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:10 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:
wack wack wrote:1) If we like the end results then it's not really an issue, is it?

2) We draw the line at pre-birth vs. post-birth.

There is no moral dilemma here.


1) It is to the potential fathers you just told to fuck off. Also anyone who thinks that reproduction is a right.

2) So let's start cutting prenatal care funding?


1) Reproduction as a right... interesting thought. My comment was in context of an arguable good of the whole, not the desires of individuals.

2) Fair enough, let's start at post-conception.

Seriously though, I'm all for science and medicine doing what it can to help individuals pursue their desires. I don't think it's any cause for hand-wringing as a society or world population.
wack wack
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3192
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:32 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Headlines

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: chainsawcurtis and 0 guests

moviesmusiceats
Select a Movie
Select a Theater


commentsViewedForum
  ISTHMUS FLICKR
Created with flickr badge.

Promotions Contact us Privacy Policy Jobs Newsletters RSS
Collapse Photo Bar