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Officer won't face criminal liability in shooting death

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Re: Officer won't face criminal liability in shooting death

Postby Crockett » Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:34 pm

Stebben84 wrote:
Maggie wrote:Heimsness had to know that Paul had no weapon.


Why?

Maggie wrote:The guy didn't even have as much as a toothpick to use as a weapon.


Was this disclosed during the struggle.


The cop never said he saw a weapon. That is fact. The cop had to resort to the bitter end of the thin blue line: he was trying to take my gun.
Last edited by Crockett on Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Officer won't face criminal liability in shooting death

Postby Kyle Motor » Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:34 pm

Crockett wrote:Maybe, but he is the type of person to bash someone's head and skull with enough force and violence to prompt a 911 call from a scared observer.


As I stated in the previous thread, everything pertaining to this particular case in the media has been based on Bill Leuder's one-sided editorial slam-piece, and should not be taken as cold fact.
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Re: Officer won't face criminal liability in shooting death

Postby Stebben84 » Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:36 pm

Crockett wrote:The cop never said he saw a weapon. That is fact.


It doesn't mean he was sure the person was unarmed. Unless he had x-ray eyes. Ohh, like some 6 million dollar man bullshit.

Crockett wrote: But to say a small, unarmed wasted guy tried to take your gun away from 5 ft is just pathetic. A simple step-to-the-side-then-foot-trip takes care of most people that drunk.


Thanks. You should write a training manual because you seem to know all it takes to be a cop.
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Re: Officer won't face criminal liability in shooting death

Postby fisticuffs » Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:39 pm

Did he follow procedure and do what he was trained to do in that situation? Yes? Case closed. Sucks all around.
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Re: Officer won't face criminal liability in shooting death

Postby Maggie » Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:50 pm

Kyle Motor wrote:As I stated in the previous thread, everything pertaining to this particular case in the media has been based on Bill Leuder's one-sided editorial slam-piece, and should not be taken as cold fact.


Kyle, I know that you are close friends with Officer Heimsness. I understand how you would want to defend a friend.

Please stop defending Officer Heimsness by persecuting Bill Leuders.Bill Leuders has nothing to do with Heimsness' poor judgement as a police officer.

Bill Leuders did not fire his weapon in a parking ramp where an innocent bystanders could have been killed.

Bill Leuders did not beat the living crap out of a man who was already subdued on a barroom floor.

Bill Leuders did not put three bullets into an unarmed drunk.

No, Officer Heimsness did those things. Not Bill Leuders.
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Re: Officer won't face criminal liability in shooting death

Postby Kyle Motor » Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:56 pm

Maggie wrote:
Kyle Motor wrote:As I stated in the previous thread, everything pertaining to this particular case in the media has been based on Bill Leuder's one-sided editorial slam-piece, and should not be taken as cold fact.


Bill Leuders did not beat the living crap out of a man who was already subdued on a barroom floor.


I never said he did. I said he wrote a scathing, one-sided editorial that all the other media outlets have been citing as fact since all this happened, and that's not fair.

fisticuffs wrote:Did he follow procedure and do what he was trained to do in that situation? Yes? Case closed. Sucks all around.


I couldn't have put it more succinctly. The situation is completely awful. Slamming a guy you don't know because you're angry and upset at an upsetting situation isn't necessary or helpful.
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Re: Officer won't face criminal liability in shooting death

Postby Stebben84 » Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:57 pm

Maggie wrote:Bill Leuders did not fire his weapon in a parking ramp where an innocent bystanders could have been killed.


Were you there. Do you know exactly what happened or what Bill Leuders said.

Maggie wrote:Bill Leuders did not beat the living crap out of a man who was already subdued on a barroom floor.


Were you there. Do you know exactly what happened or what Bill Leuders said.

You made your mind up about this case the day after it happened so it's no surprise that since he is not being prosecuted everyone else is wrong.
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Re: Officer won't face criminal liability in shooting death

Postby gargantua » Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:00 pm

Maggie wrote:
david cohen wrote:My read of the eye witness account, coupled with the forensic evidence that the gun was 2-4 feet away when fired, is that Heenan was closing on the officer for a second time...

Heimsness could have run away from a totally drunk Paul.


Maybe it's just me, but if I'm being burglarized and a responding officer confronts the burglar, one thing I would NOT expect is for the officer to run away.
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Re: Officer won't face criminal liability in shooting death

Postby david cohen » Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:01 pm

Maggie, the fact remains that your friend didn't get on the ground, when ordered, at gunpoint, by the officer. He ATTACKED the officer. But for those two facts, your friend would still be alive today. Sorry.
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Re: Officer won't face criminal liability in shooting death

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:36 pm

Since there is clearly a complete lack of understanding of the law on the part of a few forons here I thought I would spell it out a bit clearer. Police officers and armed security are trained specifically to treat any attempt to take their firearm as a deadly threat which by law it is. The rational of course being that if the assailant gets control of the gun it is assumed that the first person to be shot will be the officer. The now armed assailant can now also use the gun against others (such as the home owner he had previously attacked).
Once a threat is identified officers are the trained to use the necessary force to remove the threat.
The idea that in that close a range Heimsness could have secured his firearm and brandished a less lethal option is ludicrous and shows a fairly poor understanding of human speed. For a comparison a knife is considered a deadly threat inside 20 feet because of how quickly that distance can be covered. Heenan was considerably closer than 20 feet and had already attempted to take away Heimsness's firearm. Given that threat not only did Heimness follow proper procedures but not using deadly force to stop the threat would have been irresponsible given Herman's behavior.
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Re: Officer won't face criminal liability in shooting death

Postby Maggie » Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:09 pm

david cohen wrote:,, But for those two facts, your friend would still be alive today. Sorry.


David, Paul Heenan was not my friend. I never even heard of Paul Heenan before he was killed.

This is a very important point because many of the forons defending Heimsness are Heimsness' friend.

My viewpoint is objective and their viewpoints are not.

I should also mention that I do not recall reading Leuders' piece about Heimsness and, even if I did, I doubt if one column would sway my opinion that much.

Finally, I want to clarify by what I meant when I wrote that Heimsness could have run away. Clearly, if Paul Heenan had a weapon he would have used it so, therefore, just as Heimsness himself stipulates, that Paul did not have a weapon, he could have backed away or ran behind his police car or in his police car and let things settle down.

This is exactly what I mean by poor judgment. If Paul had any kind of weapon then Heimsness would have been justified but Heimsness himself says he saw no weapon. And Paul had already backed away or been pushed away where 5 to 6 feet were separating them. At this point shooting Paul is totally wrong.

I speculate that Paul pissed Heimsness off, just like that drunk in the bar on State Street pissed Heimsness off and just like the people driving the van in the parking ramp pissed Heimsness off. Heimsness is a hot head. He can't control his temper and the result is an unarmed drunk is dead.

For those of you who say "well if he had just followed the officers orders" he would be alive. This is ridiculous because extremely drunk people are by definition irrational. As an experienced law enforcement officer Heimsness knows this and had to realize that he is dealing with an UNARMED out of control skinny kid who really did not present much of a threat to someone bigger and carrying a gun.
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Re: Officer won't face criminal liability in shooting death

Postby Stebben84 » Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:12 pm

Armchair police officer Maggie, armchair police officer.

By the way I didn't know them either so I am also being objective.
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Re: Officer won't face criminal liability in shooting death

Postby Bland » Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:37 pm

Maggie wrote:.....he could have backed away or ran behind his police car or in his police car and let things settle down.
Are you joking? You think the proper behavior for a cop when faced with a tense situation is to run away and hope things cool down?
Maggie wrote:Heimsness is a hot head. He can't control his temper
It's really strange that you think 3 incidents in over a decade qualifies a cop as a hothead. What about the gazillion other calls he's answered where he wasn't violent at all? Seems to me it takes a lot of effort to paint three very different incidents separated by many years as a pattern.
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Re: Officer won't face criminal liability in shooting death

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:49 pm

So Maggie, you basically don't like officer Heimsness, don't have any real idea what you are talking about procedurally and are just blindly guessing at ways Heimsness could have avoided shooting a guy who attacked him and attempted to take his firearm.

You state that you haven't read anything that would change your mind but it's pretty clear you have no interest in reviewing the facts in an objective manner. Based on two previous incident that you have interpreted completely differently than legal professionals you've decided that Heimsness is prone to behavior for which there is no factual evidence.

But you want to pretend that others are lacking in objectivity.
Yet you Want to pretend that others are not being objective.
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Re: Officer won't face criminal liability in shooting death

Postby fennel » Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:08 pm

Again, I have to wonder whether the British model wouldn't have prevented this. If, by virtue of the fact that an officer carries a firearm, s/he has to respond to the threat of disarming by using lethal force ... eh, it seems like a prescription for just this kind a disaster.
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