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Steubenville, OH

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Re: Steubenville, OH

Postby kurt_w » Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:46 pm

Igor wrote:
pjbogart wrote:The football team is in danger and that girl should have known better than to put herself in that situation, right?


While there is no legal difference between being assaulted when stone sober, after being roofied, or after drinking yourself unconscious, I suspect that some people have less sympathy for the last of the three.


"some people" will say or believe all kinds of reprehensible stuff.

The outcry over this case shows that people in general are no longer going to tolerate that kind of bad behavior.

Steubenville High really needs to have its football program shut down for a couple of years. This wasn't just one or two bad apples, it was a whole culture of misbehavior that did its best to conceal and cover up these rapes, apparently including a fair number of adults in the community. Collective punishment seems entirely appropriate here.

If athletes from other teams were involved, even indirectly -- as may have been the case with at least one non-football team -- then they should shut down those teams, too. People need to get the message that some things are more important than sports.
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Re: Steubenville, OH

Postby pjbogart » Tue Jan 08, 2013 10:55 pm

I absolutely, 100% agree with Kurt. Wait a minute... neither Clay Matthews nor Aaron Rodgers were involved, were they? No? Ok, I totally agree with Kurt.
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Re: Steubenville, OH

Postby Igor » Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:00 pm

kurt_w wrote:Steubenville High really needs to have its football program shut down for a couple of years. This wasn't just one or two bad apples, it was a whole culture of misbehavior that did its best to conceal and cover up these rapes, apparently including a fair number of adults in the community. Collective punishment seems entirely appropriate here.


The sports equivalent of driving while black. How about you instead punish the kids that were at the party? When I was in HS sports, I was sitting on the end of he bench, obeying the training rules, and not playing much because I sucked. I would have been insanely pissed if I got booted because of a party that I didn't go to. If this team is good enough to win a state title, they also have plenty of kids available that were not at the party.

You can try to punish the parents - good luck with that. Madison has it's share of idiot sports parents too - they are just mostly involved with sports other than football.
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Re: Steubenville, OH

Postby kurt_w » Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:22 pm

Igor wrote:
kurt_w wrote:Steubenville High really needs to have its football program shut down for a couple of years. This wasn't just one or two bad apples, it was a whole culture of misbehavior that did its best to conceal and cover up these rapes, apparently including a fair number of adults in the community. Collective punishment seems entirely appropriate here.


The sports equivalent of driving while black. How about you instead punish the kids that were at the party?


The whole point is that it's not just the kids at the party who were the problem here. It was their teammates and coaches who tried to cover up for them. The head coach freakin' testified as a "character witness" on behalf of the two alleged rapists!

Not having a high school football team ain't the end of the world. If anyone finds that idea upsetting, they need to get a grip on their priorities.

As for comparing this to "driving while black": are you serious?
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Re: Steubenville, OH

Postby kurt_w » Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:27 pm

I actually am a volunteer coach for a kids' sports team. The kids are a few years younger than these guys. Even the older ones are mostly really great, very down-to-earth and sensible people, so I can't particularly imagine any of them doing something like this. But, God help me, if I was ever coaching a team that got involved like something like this, I'd want the whole thing to be shut down.
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Re: Steubenville, OH

Postby Igor » Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:39 pm

kurt_w wrote:As for comparing this to "driving while black": are you serious?


Punishing a group because of the actions of some? Sounds about the same. Do you honestly think that a guy that commits sexual assault is not going to do so if he had played basketball, hockey, or baseball, or played bass for some hack metal band?

As for covering up for the friends - despicable, but again, I don't see a difference there if the kids are doing something besides football. The only thing that is attributable to football is the actions of the adults.
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Re: Steubenville, OH

Postby kurt_w » Tue Jan 08, 2013 11:48 pm

Igor, I'm not talking about shutting down some other school's football team as a preventative measure. I'm talking about shutting down the program where multiple players apparently developed a "rape culture" and the rest of the team, its coaches, and its fans preferred to look the other way.

Playing high school football isn't a right, it's a privilege. In the aftermath of a case like this, losing their football team for a few years would do the players, the school, and the community a lot of good. It might prompt a little reflection about what's important in life.
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Re: Steubenville, OH

Postby snoqueen » Wed Jan 09, 2013 11:08 am

Kurt, I'm with ya, but people who are involved with sports culture don't see it that way. And that's about 90% of everybody in the US. I'm not railing against them, just making an observation. What seems perfectly reasonable to us is unthinkable to them: that the sports culture in that town (and others) is as corrupt as the Catholic Church hierarchy and for the good of not only its victims but also its participants taking a good long break for reflection would be merited.

It's almost as if the corruption is part of the game, its shadow or its underside or the other side of the coin, and to root that part out and clean it up would somehow spoil the rest of the show. I think the big ambivalence about Lance Armstrong is another example, from another angle; so are head injuries in contact sports. The troubling side of a sport adds to the thrill in some perverse and unspoken way.

At least that's how it looks to an outsider.
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Re: Steubenville, OH

Postby kurt_w » Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:37 am

A transcript of the Michael Nodianos video has been posted here. It's truly horrific.

Nodianos has apparently withdrawn or been expelled from OSU. Kent State is apparently "reviewing" its scholarship offer to another Steubenville athlete.

Defense attorneys for Mays and Richmond claim that three witnesses have been offered immunity from prosecution in exchange for testifying. The state AG's office denies that any deal has been cut. There has been much speculation that at least some of these witnesses might themselves be charged with various crimes related to the incident.

Hackers from LocalLeaks and Anonymous claim that sheriff Fred Abdalla covered up evidence implicating other members of the football team.

Apparently, there is another case proceeding quietly, involving a 14-year-old girl who was raped by Steubenville athlete(s) back in April.

(From various sources, including here and here)
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Re: Steubenville, OH

Postby kurt_w » Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:47 am

Beyond Steubenville but in the same general region, a similar case occurred recently in Louisville, Kentucky.

In that case, two athletes pled guilty, and as part of the plea arrangement the judge tried to force the victim not to ever talk or write about her ordeal. For a while last year she was facing prosecution for speaking about the crime, while the two boys who admitted to sexually assaulting her, photographing the assault, and sharing the photos with their teammates had gotten off with a few hours of community service and some counseling.

As in the Steubenville case, there are disturbing indications that the local authorities were more interested in covering up the crime than in prosecuting it.
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Re: Steubenville, OH

Postby bdog » Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:02 pm

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Re: Steubenville, OH

Postby kurt_w » Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:19 pm

bdog wrote:Guilty


and more here, commentary/analysis intermingled with news:

Steubenville High School football players found guilty of raping 16-year-old girl

I don't think the conviction is much of a surprise, considering that at least one of the defendants basically confessed to the whole thing via a series of twitter postings and photos that he shared with his buddies that night.

That said ... I think the larger problem is with the team, the school, and the community. At a bare minimum, the so-called "adults" working with the football team (coaches and volunteer coaches) need to be replaced. And their replacements need to make it clear to the kids what it means to be a responsible human being.

Better yet would be to give the football program a couple of years' time-out. Say, four years, so the current bunch of kids can move out and they can start afresh with a clean slate.
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Re: Steubenville, OH

Postby david cohen » Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:17 pm

Let's just kill everyone and let God sort them out. Yep, real bright.
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Re: Steubenville, OH

Postby kurt_w » Sun Mar 17, 2013 7:36 pm

Yeah, because suggesting that a scandal-ridden high school football team should be temporarily disbanded is exactly like suggesting that they should be killed.

:roll:
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Re: Steubenville, OH

Postby kurt_w » Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:08 pm

The school may be dragging its feet on any kind of disciplinary action, but others may keep working on it:

(Reuters) - Ohio Attorney General Mike DeWine said on Sunday he would seek a grand jury investigation to look deeper into the events surrounding the rape of a 16-year-old girl [...]

DeWine said that while they had conducted an extensive investigation, 16 people, mostly juveniles, had refused to cooperate and they could not bring a finality to it without convening a grand jury.


Why exactly does this guy still have his job as head coach:

During testimony on Thursday, a witness revealed that one of the accused teens sent text messages in August that indicated [Coach Reno Saccoccia] – an icon in the community – knew about the incident and his players believed their coach would "take care of it."

Joann Gibb, who works in the state lab that retrieved hundreds of text messages from some of the 17 phones seized during the investigation, testified in Jefferson County Juvenile Court for hours Thursday. She read graphic and often expletive-laced text messages that flew back and forth among a circle of Steubenville-area teens in the hours and days following the incident. [...]

According to Gibb, the 17-year-old defendant texted a friend: "I got Reno. He took care of it and sh-- ain't gonna happen, even if they did take it to court."


Oops, turned out that Coach Saccoccia can't actually overrule the state's legal system. I know that may be a shock to some of the more football-obsessed folks out there.
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