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Crew of 4 invades house brimming with guns, steals them

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Re: Crew of 4 invades house brimming with guns, steals them

Postby bcs89 » Tue Jan 15, 2013 4:52 pm

rabble wrote:
bcs89 wrote:For myself, I'll reserve my judgment and sense of superiority, till I know more than just "a family that owned guns was held hostage and robbed at gun point".

Oh yeah. You're not exuding any judgmental or holier than thou vibes at all.



Well, it’s definitely not my intent, but when people such as your self start fabricating stuff out of whole cloth, like this:

“I got another theory. A guy collects gun after gun, stockpiles ammo, brags about it every day, and puts a "protected by Smith and Wesson" sign on his door.

Then gets robbed by idiots and never gets a shot off.

What a victim.”


With out even a shred of evidence to back it up, well..
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Re: Crew of 4 invades house brimming with guns, steals them

Postby Detritus » Tue Jan 15, 2013 5:11 pm

doppel wrote:It's quite possible, actually likely, that the perps knew of the guns inside.The mere threat of confiscation has raised the value of them on the black market. Basic economics: scarcity raises value. It will increase with every more restrictive law passed. The law of unintended consequences biting us in the ass again. Expect to see more invasions.

Who's threatening to confiscate them? You must mean "the irrational fear of confiscation."
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Re: Crew of 4 invades house brimming with guns, steals them

Postby ejbrush » Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:57 am

I really don't like commenting on the gun issue, but the kerfuffle over somebody owning 30 guns isn't necessarily the sign of a anti-government Randian nut. Not in a lot of parts of Wisconsin, anyhow. I grew up around Rhinelander. Both mom and dad's families survived the Depression years not in small part by stocking the larder with fish and game. Hunting and fishing was, and still is for us, an activity that combines a serious intent to put meat on the table with a genuine working-class recreation. I would put it in stark contrast to the moronic "outdoors" programs on TV (Outdoor Wisconsin being the shining exception) that I feel do more damage to the image of hunting than anything short of that no-talent-hack Nugent. At any rate, I received a .22 rifle for Christmas when I was 12. Target practice and squirrels. Worked all summer splitting firewood and bought a 20ga shotgun for partridge and the occasional woodcock (foul tasting birds, not worth the effort). Was gifted my late uncle's 30-06 that year for deer season. Scrimped and saved to get a 12ga for goose and ducks. So here I am at 16 with four guns already. In the intervening 20 years, I have bought maybe four more guns - a lighter, handier rifle for deer, a .22 pistol for target shooting, a heavier revolver for home defense, and a WW1-era Swiss service rifle because of the crazy precision machining that went into making it. So I'm at eight. Then relatives get old and die. Mom's dad dies, I end up with his deer rifle, his best friends deer rife he got in the will, two of his shotguns, a couple 22 rifles a .32 pistol. Dad's dad dies, I end up with his deer rifle, great granddads deer rifle, four shotguns and a pistol he brought back from Italy in WW2. My dad dies, I end up with his deer rifles, shotguns, etc, etc. It ain't hard, you just have to outlive your family. Now, if the house robbed had 30 AR-15 TactiCool rifles lined up in ready racks with six loaded mags each, that would be one thing. But, a household in Wisconsin ending up with twenty or thirty assorted obsolete firearms, maybe not. And yes, they are in safes. Except for the flintlock musket, which is hanging on the wall.
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Re: Crew of 4 invades house brimming with guns, steals them

Postby bcs89 » Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:44 pm

Thank you ejbrush, for your insight. It is because of situations such as yours I thought it might be prudent to withhold judgment on this story – especially given an almost complete lack of details, other than “30 guns”. Unfortunately, there are many who are more than happy to draw absolutely no distinction between you and the nut-job with the ready rack of fully loaded AR-15’s waiting for “The Showdown”. It seems some are even proud to do so.
Personally I think we need some serious changes to our gun laws. In my opinion, to do that, we need to encourage all the support we can get - including that of law abiding gun owners – I cant see that happening by painting with the broadest brush at hand.
Last edited by bcs89 on Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Crew of 4 invades house brimming with guns, steals them

Postby Meade » Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:10 pm

jman111 wrote:Doesn't this discussion belong in THE gun thread?
jjoyce wrote:Fair warning: On Monday morning, all gun talk will be moved to this thread and the others will be locked. I really don't think there's any need for multiple gun threads at the same time.

This forum is not about guns. In the grand scheme of issues affecting the lives of people living around Madison, guns is a very small one. Based on looking at this board, it's a very big issue, but only to a small group of people who have a lot of time to post.

Did Jason ever adequately explain why he started this entirely new thread for discussing guns and gun rhetoric after earlier admonishing us all to take all gun talk to The Gun Thread?
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Re: Crew of 4 invades house brimming with guns, steals them

Postby ejbrush » Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:33 pm

Personally I think we need some serious changes to our gun laws. In my opinion, to do that, we need to encourage all the support we can get - including that of law abiding gun owners – I cant see that happening by painting with the broadest brush at hand.

I think we need some serious changes as well. Serious, rational changes. I saw the proposals laid out by the president, and think there is a lot of potential, just on the little things alone - cracking down on straw purchases, vigorous investigation of denied purchases, stuff like that. The devil is in the details, as always. Will the definition of assault weapon end up scooping up Granddad's Remington Woodsmaster? A sloppily written, poorly-worded law could. Is a 10 round magazine limit going to inconvenience any law-abiding people? Certainly - but then there are times when having a shotgun with a 16" long barrel would be legitimately useful (deer hunting in thick brush). An arbitrary federal law has prohibited since shotguns with barrels shorter than 18" since 1934, and I can't recall ever hearing anyone blather on about it being a threat to mom, apple pie and the American Way of Life.
My dad was a member of the NRA his whole life, and had a stack of American Rifleman magazines going back into the 60's. They used to be devoted almost exclusively to firearms, gun safety and sports with only a sliver of political stuff. Somewhere in the 70's or 80's though, something shifted. It became polarized, with an simplistic, no compromise position on gun laws. I think they backed themselves into a corner. National firearms policy would be more effective and more efficient if sportsman and gun owners were playing an active part and participating in the give-and-take of legislation. But there has been a no-quarter attitude for so long that nobody can bend at all. And eventually, everything that can't bend will end up breaking.
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Re: Crew of 4 invades house brimming with guns, steals them

Postby Sandi » Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:31 pm

At 70 pages it is time to retire the gun thread and start a fresh one anyhow. It spans 8 months which is too long and by rights the older posts should be archived ( assuming phpBB has archiving ).

Just my opinion.
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Re: Crew of 4 invades house brimming with guns, steals them

Postby Detritus » Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:42 pm

Sandi wrote:At 70 pages it is time to retire the gun thread and start a fresh one anyhow. It spans 8 months which is too long and by rights the older posts should be archived ( assuming phpBB has archiving ).

Also assuming that anyone would want to relive those "discussions" in the first place.
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Re: Crew of 4 invades house brimming with guns, steals them

Postby kurt_w » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:58 am

Another school shooting or two, some more demented quotes from Wayne La Pierre, and maybe a right-wing domestic terrorism case, and The Gun Thread will probably be at 100 pages by June.

Unfortunately.
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Re: Crew of 4 invades house brimming with guns, steals them

Postby wack wack » Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:57 pm

kurt_w wrote:Another school shooting or two, some more demented quotes from Wayne La Pierre...


Notice the absence of this silly bird lately? Word on the street is he's been relegated to signing donation solicitation letters for awhile.
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Re: Crew of 4 invades house brimming with guns, steals them

Postby rabble » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:58 pm

A few more facts coming out. I doubt this will get much further since it might make the gun nuts look bad.
Police found 21 long guns in the suspects' vehicle. They identified 20 as belonging to the town of Fulton victims.

So, the guns belong to the victims. And the guns didn't do the victims one dam bit of good.

And if I'm getting the counts right, we're still missing nine or ten firearms.

We've got to arm the schoolteachers, though. The reason these guns didn't help is most likely because they weren't assault rifles. If only they'd had five or six of those with 40 round clips. Then things would have been different.
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Re: Crew of 4 invades house brimming with guns, steals them

Postby snoqueen » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:22 pm

ejbrush wrote:Will the definition of assault weapon end up scooping up Granddad's Remington Woodsmaster? A sloppily written, poorly-worded law could. Is a 10 round magazine limit going to inconvenience any law-abiding people? Certainly - but then there are times when having a shotgun with a 16" long barrel would be legitimately useful....


I can see what you mean here and it's exactly why, in writing gun legislation, we need sensible, responsible gun owners at the table. And for now, I don't know who represents you guys. The NRA (I think you agree) has forfeited the title. Who's going to speak for this legitimate interest group? If no one does, we just invite more resentment.

A side note. I've mentioned my hillbilly gun-toting grandfather before. He's been dead 60 years so we can safely call him whatever we like. One of the guns he left to my dad (who was a pistol marksman in the military but never shot a gun after WWII ended) was an example of the illegal-since-1934 shotguns you mentioned elsewhere in your post. It not only had a very short barrel (I don't know if it was manufactured that way or what), it also had a collapsible stock so you could carry it hidden under your coat. I've got no idea why my grandfather had it, but it's likely he was up to no good and not just shooting varmints.

I remember the gun clearly and it was one of the craziest-looking little firearms I ever saw. My dad knew full well it was illegal and told the local cops he had it, and they told him they didn't care (he was an upstanding citizen in a small town where everyone knew everyone else). By time he died, it had vanished. I have no idea how he got rid of it or where it ended up, and I wish, just a little, that I knew.
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Re: Crew of 4 invades house brimming with guns, steals them

Postby ejbrush » Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:16 am

I can see what you mean here and it's exactly why, in writing gun legislation, we need sensible, responsible gun owners at the table. And for now, I don't know who represents you guys. The NRA (I think you agree) has forfeited the title. Who's going to speak for this legitimate interest group? If no one does, we just invite more resentment.
I couldn't agree more. As I alluded to, though, there is a pretty ridged orthodoxy on each end of the spectrum that can't even begin to imagine a middle ground. Americans don't like ambiguity, and it shows in pretty much every politically active debate we have. Right now, we have the knuckle-dragging hillbilly's and testosterone-poisoned mall ninja gun nuts squaring off against the birkenstock wearing tofu eating hippies and the secret Lenin-worshiping fifth-columnists that want to herd us all into FEMA camps.
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Re: Crew of 4 invades house brimming with guns, steals them

Postby wack wack » Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:34 am

ejbrush wrote:
I can see what you mean here and it's exactly why, in writing gun legislation, we need sensible, responsible gun owners at the table. And for now, I don't know who represents you guys. The NRA (I think you agree) has forfeited the title. Who's going to speak for this legitimate interest group? If no one does, we just invite more resentment.
I couldn't agree more. As I alluded to, though, there is a pretty ridged orthodoxy on each end of the spectrum that can't even begin to imagine a middle ground. Americans don't like ambiguity, and it shows in pretty much every politically active debate we have. Right now, we have the knuckle-dragging hillbilly's and testosterone-poisoned mall ninja gun nuts squaring off against the birkenstock wearing tofu eating hippies and the secret Lenin-worshiping fifth-columnists that want to herd us all into FEMA camps.


Any sense of how big the rigid orthodoxies at each end are? They're certainly not of the same size, weight or rigidity. Nor are their orthodoxies defined by similar amounts of fact or reason.

The whole "they do it too!" thing is a pretty weak argument and does not reflect reality.
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Re: Crew of 4 invades house brimming with guns, steals them

Postby bcs89 » Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:05 am

wack wack wrote:
ejbrush wrote:
I can see what you mean here and it's exactly why, in writing gun legislation, we need sensible, responsible gun owners at the table. And for now, I don't know who represents you guys. The NRA (I think you agree) has forfeited the title. Who's going to speak for this legitimate interest group? If no one does, we just invite more resentment.
I couldn't agree more. As I alluded to, though, there is a pretty ridged orthodoxy on each end of the spectrum that can't even begin to imagine a middle ground. Americans don't like ambiguity, and it shows in pretty much every politically active debate we have. Right now, we have the knuckle-dragging hillbilly's and testosterone-poisoned mall ninja gun nuts squaring off against the birkenstock wearing tofu eating hippies and the secret Lenin-worshiping fifth-columnists that want to herd us all into FEMA camps.


Any sense of how big the rigid orthodoxies at each end are? They're certainly not of the same size, weight or rigidity. Nor are their orthodoxies defined by similar amounts of fact or reason.

The whole "they do it too!" thing is a pretty weak argument and does not reflect reality.



Where exactly is "they do it too!" even brought up? I don't see it in the quote you seem to be responding to - did I miss something?
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