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Officer won't face criminal liability in shooting death

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Re: Officer won't face criminal liability in shooting death

Postby bdog » Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:29 pm

Well if he was that ineffective the neighbor would have wrapped him up and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

The family is certainly free to argue in court that you didn't shit your pants in a cornfield 25 years ago.
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Re: Officer won't face criminal liability in shooting death

Postby Meade » Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:40 pm

25 years ago in winter. How are you going to convince a jury that it was a cornfield and not a soybean field. More likely it was an alfalfa field. And if you lied about the specifics of crop rotation, what's to say you're not lying about what did or didn't happen in your pants? Or that you were even wearing pants?
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Re: Officer won't face criminal liability in shooting death

Postby jonnygothispen » Sun Jan 20, 2013 10:49 pm

Concession accepted :)
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Re: Officer won't face criminal liability in shooting death

Postby jonnygothispen » Mon Jan 21, 2013 1:29 pm

david cohen wrote:Heenan was already criminally trespassing on the O'Malley's property, so I think that fact (as related to 911 by Mrs. O'Malley) wasn't lost on the officer when he arrived to find Heenan and O'Malley in a physical altercation. Totality of the circumstances and all of that...what I still wonder is what did Heenan do between being dropped off around 2am by the owner of Weary Traveler and 2:30 or so when he entered the O'Malley residence? That's a long time on a cold night for a drunk to just be hanging outside.
.. only if the Home owner files charges. O'Malley seems to be leaning in the other direction though.

Perhaps the friend (owner or employee?) from the Weary Traveler dropped him off a bit later than that but didn't want to mention that he allowed anyone in the bar after bar time? It's irrelevant either way in regards to what happened.

(far be it from anyone to apply the same line of questioning or standards to officer Heimsness that are being applied to Pauli on this thread)
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Re: Officer won't face criminal liability in shooting death

Postby jonnygothispen » Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:08 pm

a disarming account (no one was hurt): http://host.madison.com/news/local/crim ... 963f4.html
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Re: Officer won't face criminal liability in shooting death

Postby snoqueen » Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:28 pm

I know people are tired of this, but if anyone's still following along here is a link to a blog post by former Madison police chief David Couper regarding community policing and the use of force referencing the east side shooting we've been discussing:

http://improvingpolice.wordpress.com/20 ... n-madison/

He takes a very long view without glossing over the details, and asks more questions than he answers.
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Re: Officer won't face criminal liability in shooting death

Postby jonnygothispen » Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:18 pm

snoqueen wrote:I know people are tired of this, but if anyone's still following along here is a link to a blog post by former Madison police chief David Couper regarding community policing and the use of force referencing the east side shooting we've been discussing:

http://improvingpolice.wordpress.com/20 ... n-madison/

He takes a very long view without glossing over the details, and asks more questions than he answers.
What an excellent article! Wow! Shew...
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Re: Officer won't face criminal liability in shooting death

Postby The One » Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:24 pm

jonnygothispen wrote:a disarming account (no one was hurt): http://host.madison.com/news/local/crim ... 963f4.html

What's your point? People try to disarm police officers all of the time. My father, a retired cop, had many people try to go for his gun. There is a HUGE difference between going for cop's gun when it's holstered and going for a gun when it's out.

I have a hypothetical (not sure if this has been addressed or not). If Pauli disarmed Heimsness, what do you believe he would have done with the gun?

My answer is, it doesn't matter. Paul was dead either way. If he had succeed, Officer Troumbly would have, theoretically, shot him. The only question there is would she have stopped Paul quick enough before he put a couple of rounds in Heimsness.
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Re: Officer won't face criminal liability in shooting death

Postby jonnygothispen » Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:25 pm

I have no point at all, obviously. I only posted that to piss you off, whoever you are. Although David Couper (thanks) has a few points you might be able to comprehend: http://improvingpolice.wordpress.com/20 ... n-madison/

A number of the questions that have been raised in the community are listed below. More may be coming.

1. Should the police be permitted to investigate a potential crime involving one of their own officers?
2. Given the police culture, shouldn’t the district attorney form a team of officers from a number of area police agencies (but not involving the involved department) to investigate these kinds of deaths?
3. The deadly force policy of the Madison Police Department addresses the department’s “legal and moral obligation” to the public. While the District Attorney may have addressed the department’s legal obligation when he determined the officer did not violate state law in taking the man’s life, does not there still remain the moral question: did the department satisfy its moral obligation to the community to “use force wisely and judiciously” and only after a “lesser degree” of force would be “insufficient?”
4. If the police officer was legally authorized to use deadly force in this situation, should he have? Could other actions or tactics have been taken that would not have resulted in the man’s death?
5. Are police officers adequately trained to handle situations in which an unarmed person fails to respond to verbal commands and attempts to physically grapple with an officer?
6. Is it reasonable to believe that well-trained, seasoned police officers would react in the same was as did the officer in question?
7. How are Madison police officers trained with regard to retaining their weapons and applying “less-than-deadly” force? Does the department use high-stress training scenarios similar to this one (someone trying to grab an officer’s gun)?
8. Was the situation as dangerous as the officer has said given number of back-up officers in the vicinity? Is this not a fairly usual event for a police officer in a city well-known for its consumption of alcohol?
9. Was the officer in question using “the castle doctrine” argument; that a person has a right to “stand his ground” and not retreat? Is that reasonable for a police officer?
10. Will this be the new “standard of conduct” regarding how the Madison department will deal with a situation like this in the future?
Last edited by jonnygothispen on Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Officer won't face criminal liability in shooting death

Postby Bland » Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:30 pm

jonnygothispen wrote:Noble Wray has a few points you might be able to comprehend...
I think you mean David Couper.
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Re: Officer won't face criminal liability in shooting death

Postby Stu Levitan » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:15 am

Isthmus coverage of last night's community meeting. Impressesions/accounts from Forons who were there?
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Re: Officer won't face criminal liability in shooting death

Postby jhain » Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:59 pm

Stu Levitan wrote:Isthmus coverage of last night's community meeting. Impressesions/accounts from Forons who were there?


Fairly accurate account except I don't recall Chief Wray saying anything about a Justice Dept review. Does anyone know if this is true?
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Re: Officer won't face criminal liability in shooting death

Postby jonnygothispen » Thu Jan 31, 2013 11:31 am

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Re: Officer won't face criminal liability in shooting death

Postby Boyce Johnson » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:06 pm

Streaming Media of the 1/29 meeting from Madison City Channel can be found here.
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Re: Officer won't face criminal liability in shooting death

Postby jjoyce » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:47 pm

jhain wrote:Fairly accurate account except I don't recall Chief Wray saying anything about a Justice Dept review. Does anyone know if this is true?


There was a DOJ review included with the report released by the MPD earlier this month.
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