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Clean Water Act Violations by Bad River Chippewa

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Re: Clean Water Act Violations by Bad River Chippewa

Postby Donald » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:29 pm

Tribal wastewater facilities are usually a joint tribal/BIA function. Corrections to any problems come under the trust responsibility of the federal government. If there are problems with the wastewater treatment system, and the federal government isn't stepping up with the funding to correct the problem, they are in just as much violation of treaty rights as if they would simply allow a mine to pollute. But I hardly think this takes away from the tribe's concerns about the mine. In fact it might make their case stronger, because it might show that even federal oversight will be inadequate to prevent violations of clean water standards.

But I first have to be convinced that these are legal violations of standards. These appear to be occassional exceedences due to mechanical breakdowns, etc., which generally aren't considered violations as long as they are corrected and don't happen too often.

If Media Trackers thinks there is a serious problem, there is a public complaint system that can be used. My guess is they aren't very serious about correcting the problem. It might cost taxpayers some money to fix the problem.
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Re: Clean Water Act Violations by Bad River Chippewa

Postby narcoleptish » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:31 pm

But the handful (or possibly less) of people who are responsible for these violations at the treatment plant, are not the only people in Wisconsin concerned about water quality.

Put another way, if you subscribe to a party belief against government handouts and business regulation and then it is discovered that your business has been receiving government subsidies for years...

Sno beat me to the two wrongs line.
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Re: Clean Water Act Violations by Bad River Chippewa

Postby Galoot » Mon Feb 25, 2013 4:34 pm

Thank you, Donald, for an excellent summary of the various responsibilities.

It just stuns me that someone would think that, because this tribe has had problems with their waste water treatment plant, that this same tribe's campaign against heavy metal pollution of an incredible wetlands system is somehow irrelevant.
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Re: Clean Water Act Violations by Bad River Chippewa

Postby Zoti Bemba » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:28 pm

Is the problem with the mine heavy metals? I thought it was sulfides, which are a whole different order of pollutants than sewage runoffs, especially if your concern is wild rice beds.

It seems to me the OP is trying to conflate two things by using a single term, "pollutants", so that s/he can pretend it's no big deal, everybody's doing it, the mining companies ought to be allowed to do it to. The Bush Administration pulled the same rhetorical trick by lumping together chemical, biological and nuclear weapons under the heading of WMDs at the beginning of the second Gulf War, and then pretending that because Saddam Hussein was known to have used one category of WMD he clearly had access to (and no doubt would use) other, technically far more difficult, types.

Galoot, can you tell me what kind of logical fallacy that is? It drove me nuts, but being a product of SRA and whole word reading I'm afraid "rhetorica" is just a word on a seal for me.
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Re: Clean Water Act Violations by Bad River Chippewa

Postby ABCD » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:13 pm

http://wcmcoop.com/2012/02/18/facade-of-responsible-mining-crumbles-new-mining-bill-misleads-the-public/

Minnesota iron ore averages 0.05% sulfur (which is about 0.1% pyrite). Proposed mine in the Penokee Mountains contain 20% pyrite which is 2,000% more consentated. You are talking about producing billions and billions of gallons of sulfuric acid.
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Re: Clean Water Act Violations by Bad River Chippewa

Postby Stebben84 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:19 pm

Doright_Dudley wrote:This is a significant development in the debate.


No, it's not.
Donald wrote:If Media Trackers thinks there is a serious problem


No, they don't. They're playing some sort of gotcha moment and as Sno said...

Also, we have a link to Media Matters which is pretty much a joke. They then link to EPA reports and try to decipher the statistics without any other analysis other than the raw numbers(pretty much as Donald pointed out) This has nothing to do with the mine and they and Dudley very well know this. And, FWIW:

Media Trackers is a conservative non-profit, non-partisan investigative watchdog


Emphasis mine. Really? That's your tagline?
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Re: Clean Water Act Violations by Bad River Chippewa

Postby snoqueen » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:34 pm

In case you don't remember high school chemistry, FeS-subscript-2 is iron pyrite. (I don't know how to make a real subscript on here.) In nature and in mining, iron pyrite naturally decomposes and one of the eventual products of decomposition is sulfuric acid. The sulfuric acid then gets into the wateways. More is worse.

I'm not sure what heavy metals are an issue with this mineral deposit. I'd like to see some information.
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Re: Clean Water Act Violations by Bad River Chippewa

Postby rabble » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:31 pm

Doright_Dudley wrote:More avoidance by Rabble.

Somebody's doing some serious avoidin' round here, that's for sure.
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Re: Clean Water Act Violations by Bad River Chippewa

Postby Doright_Dudley » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:06 pm

OK Rabble, lets recap.

A proposed mine has the "potential" do to unthinkable harm to the areas water resources which must be stopped by whatever means necessary because this mine would be the end of the world as we know it. History has proven the devastation of iron ore mining in northern Wisconsin - a true wasteland.

A "real" tribal operated waste water treatment facility is and has been in violation of the Clean Water Act for years and years but its: A) not their fault, B) not really any proven violations, C) not really harming anything, D) their right to do whatever they want, E) just a couple of tribal workers that goofed-up, F) all of the above.
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Re: Clean Water Act Violations by Bad River Chippewa

Postby rabble » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:09 pm

Okay, so we're still going with the "they made dirty water so we should go ahead with the mine" tactic.

Thanks, just wanted to make sure you hadn't been following.
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Re: Clean Water Act Violations by Bad River Chippewa

Postby Doright_Dudley » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:14 pm

From the report:

"A 2009 investigative report by the New York Times found hundreds of facilities around the country that were in violation of Clean Water Act standards. No other facility in Wisconsin, according to that report, had more violations of the Clean Water Act than the Bad River Band’s wastewater treatment facility. The report called the facility a polluter and implied that it was contributing to lower water quality."

Rabble, Why won't you address the issues of the report?
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Re: Clean Water Act Violations by Bad River Chippewa

Postby Stebben84 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:23 pm

Doright_Dudley wrote:A "real" tribal operated waste water treatment facility is and has been in violation of the Clean Water Act for years and years but its: A) not their fault, B) not really any proven violations, C) not really harming anything, D) their right to do whatever they want, E) just a couple of tribal workers that goofed-up, F) all of the above.


Has nothing to do with the proposed mine. Do you get that?
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Re: Clean Water Act Violations by Bad River Chippewa

Postby Doright_Dudley » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:28 pm

Stebben84 wrote:Has nothing to do with the proposed mine. Do you get that?


Others made that linkage first, not me.

Why won't you address the issues in the report that started this thread?
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Re: Clean Water Act Violations by Bad River Chippewa

Postby rabble » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:34 pm

Doright_Dudley wrote:Rabble, Why won't you address the issues of the report?

Stebben just answered it. I'll try to explain it in small words for you.

There's the water treatment plant, and there's a mine.

They aren't related.

"If a community is having trouble with its waste treatment, then someone should open a mine there" is not a logical statement.

I hope their waste treatment problems turn out okay but I'm not interested in the details.
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Re: Clean Water Act Violations by Bad River Chippewa

Postby Doright_Dudley » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:40 pm

Rabble,

Forget about the mine - you brought it up in the first place.

Why won't you address the issues in the report?
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