MOBILE USERS: m.isthmus.com
Connect with Isthmus on Twitter · Facebook · Flickr · Newsletters · Instagram 
kayaks
Thursday, September 18, 2014 |  Madison, WI: 62.0° F  A Few Clouds
Collapse Photo Bar

The gun thread

If it's news, but not politics, then it goes here.

Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:13 pm

NRA developing 'best practices' for school safety

I have no doubt that their "solution" will involve more guns.
Henry Vilas
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 19871
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Name sez it all

Re: The gun thread

Postby DCB » Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:08 pm

Detritus wrote:Well, in 1543 the Japanese government confiscated all the guns in the country--and we all know how that turned out.


You can find this list on lots of wingnut sites.
Apparently "gun control" == confiscation.

Just image if the people had spoken up in Nazi Germany, and said "Don't take away guns from the Jews! they need to defend themselves against our plans for genocide". Things might have gone very differently.
DCB
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2648
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:08 pm

Re: The gun thread

Postby wack wack » Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:28 pm

DCB wrote:
Detritus wrote:Well, in 1543 the Japanese government confiscated all the guns in the country--and we all know how that turned out.


You can find this list on lots of wingnut sites.
Apparently "gun control" == confiscation.


Holy. Crap.

Had to double check to make sure this wasn't an Onion piece.
wack wack
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3146
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:32 pm

Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:58 pm

Dateline: Friendship, WI

Authorities said an Adams woman is dead after a shooting early Saturday.

The Adams County Sheriff’s Department said it responded to a report of a shooting at 117 N. Elm St. in the City of Adams.

Coleman Dybul, 28, of Adams told dispatchers at about 1:48 a.m. that he was asleep in bed when his girlfriend startled him and he shot her with a shotgun kept near the bed.


Then there is this:

... the FBI keeps statistics on "justifiable homicide" by private citizens. In 2011, there were 260 "justifiable homicides" in the U.S., 201 of which were by guns. Meanwhile, in 2010, according to data cited in Wikipedia, there were 19,392 firearm-related suicide deaths and 11,078 firearm-related homicide deaths in the United States.
Henry Vilas
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 19871
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Name sez it all

Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Thu Mar 07, 2013 9:58 am

Henry Vilas
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 19871
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Name sez it all

Re: The gun thread

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:29 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:
... the FBI keeps statistics on "justifiable homicide" by private citizens. In 2011, there were 260 "justifiable homicides" in the U.S., 201 of which were by guns. Meanwhile, in 2010, according to data cited in Wikipedia, there were 19,392 firearm-related suicide deaths and 11,078 firearm-related homicide deaths in the United States.


Gun control isn't going to address the issue of suicide or depression in a meaningful way.

Not saying it might not reduce the over all number of suicides, but once again it ignores the bigger issue of mental health treatment in this country being horribly inadequate.
Francis Di Domizio
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2417
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:11 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI

Re: The gun thread

Postby DCB » Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:34 am

Francis Di Domizio wrote:Gun control isn't going to address the issue of suicide or depression in a meaningful way.

Not saying it might not reduce the over all number of suicides, but once again it ignores the bigger issue of mental health treatment in this country being horribly inadequate.

You're (deliberately?) confusing the issue. Taking away the guns isn't going to cure depression, and nobody is arguing that it would. But it does reduce the opportunity for suicide.

It worked in Israel.
DCB
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2648
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:08 pm

Re: The gun thread

Postby snoqueen » Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:00 am

Sure, mental health care is totally inadequate in the US. That's part of what you get in a low tax/low services environment.

But it's hard to disagree that if we had fewer households where guns were present, fewer people would shoot themselves. I mean, how obvious is that?

Unfortunately, there is no path at all to get from here (lots of guns) to there (fewer guns). The gunnies are way too paranoid about "protecting their families" (against what? mountain lions? people stealing the laptop?) to protect their families against the far more common suicides, spousal abuse, and gun accidents.
snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 11498
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: The gun thread

Postby wack wack » Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:06 am

snoqueen wrote:The gunnies are way too paranoid about "protecting their families" (against what? mountain lions? people stealing the laptop?)


Drones, of course.
wack wack
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 3146
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2003 5:32 pm

Re: The gun thread

Postby Francis Di Domizio » Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:58 pm

snoqueen wrote:Sure, mental health care is totally inadequate in the US. That's part of what you get in a low tax/low services environment.

But it's hard to disagree that if we had fewer households where guns were present, fewer people would shoot themselves. I mean, how obvious is that?

Unfortunately, there is no path at all to get from here (lots of guns) to there (fewer guns). The gunnies are way too paranoid about "protecting their families" (against what? mountain lions? people stealing the laptop?) to protect their families against the far more common suicides, spousal abuse, and gun accidents.


No argument that reducing the number of guns will reduce the opportunity for people to commit suicide, though not remove it. I guess the point I was trying to make is if we want to reduce suicides (and other gun deaths related to mental health issues), maybe putting as much focus on fixing mental health care as we put on trying to reduce the number of guns in this country would be a better choice.

You said it yourself Sno, there isn't currently a path to achieve a reduction in firearms. Wouldn't improving mental health be an easier goal to work towards if the goal really is to reduce deaths? Not saying anyone should drop their fight for more sensible gun laws, but why isn't mental health just as important a fight?
Francis Di Domizio
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2417
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2011 8:11 pm
Location: Milwaukee, WI

Re: The gun thread

Postby rabble » Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:19 pm

Francis Di Domizio wrote:Not saying anyone should drop their fight for more sensible gun laws, but why isn't mental health just as important a fight?

In my own opinion it's just as important but it's much more complicated and we're a little bit broken right now. Can't do both. Probably can't do either given our current track record.

But if there were fewer guns there would be less opportunity for mentally ill people to hurt themselves and others.

First I'd like to minimize the damage, then work on the illness.
rabble
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 6157
Joined: Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:50 pm

Re: The gun thread

Postby snoqueen » Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:43 pm

You said it yourself Sno, there isn't currently a path to achieve a reduction in firearms. Wouldn't improving mental health be an easier goal to work towards if the goal really is to reduce deaths? Not saying anyone should drop their fight for more sensible gun laws, but why isn't mental health just as important a fight?


I agree with what rabble just said, but I think mental health professionals are just as baffled as the rest of us as to how to help. People don't make an appointment and come in saying "I think I'm about to shoot my girlfriend," after all. Usually anger-management treatment is court-ordered, and showing that it works is iffy. It's one of those things we do because we can't think of anything better.

We don't want to stop trying, but it's hard to imagine a sensible mental health program that would really make a dent in gun violence because potential shooters are probably highly resistant to voluntarily seeking assistance. I wish it didn't look that way to me. Maybe you can talk me out of it.

I do believe a national database, kept up to date, of people barred from owning a gun would help if it's accompanied by requirements that every sale be checked against that database. That would at least make it harder for those who have already shown they're too dangerous to be armed to buy guns. Sure, there are so many workarounds in the idea it's a joke to a determined murderer, but traffic laws are a joke to the determined drunk-driver and still we don't stop having traffic laws.

There are a few other databases I think would help (serial numbers come to mind -- if your gun is stolen, you need to report it because you're responsible for the gun and for who you loan/give/share it with).
All of this is dreamland for now, but it's not mental-health based either. We need to work on this from all sides and I am not about to claim one is more important than the other.

Look at any recent mass shooting, think of places that a tiny change would have prevented numerous deaths, compile a list of those changes and how they could be effected, and you will come up with a very diverse but real-world-based map of possibilities for reducing the incidence of mass shootings in the future.

For instance, try "in a home with children or with residents having serious mental health issues or a recent history of violence, guns must be secured in a gun safe separate from the ammunition." Word it however you like, but think how many lives that might have saved in Connecticut, or how many suicides/family shootings per year might be prevented. If we can't reduce the number of guns, we can at least try to keep them from being used so easily in a manner so dangerous to innocent people.
snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 11498
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: The gun thread

Postby Henry Vilas » Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:50 am

Law conceals criminal information on concealed carry license applicants and holders

Check out the photo at the top of the article. Anyone care to venture as to his identity?
Henry Vilas
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 19871
Joined: Wed Sep 04, 2002 8:57 pm
Location: Name sez it all

Re: The gun thread

Postby snoqueen » Sun Mar 10, 2013 12:24 pm

If your neighbor lives in a limey-green house with white trim and a white garage next door, you might want to leave him alone (or maybe just leave) when he's cutting the grass.

Just sayin'.

It looks uncomfortably like my own neighborhood -- but wait. We already had our gun-nut tragedy when someone down the street went out and murdered his wife and then came home and shot himself. Isn't one enough?
snoqueen
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 11498
Joined: Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:42 pm

Re: The gun thread

Postby DCB » Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:05 pm

Henry Vilas wrote:[url=http://m.host.madison.com/ct/news/local/crime_and_courts/law-conceals-criminal-information-on-concealed-carry-license-applicants-and/article_54f63624-88e3-11e2-8f03-0019bb2963f4.html[/url]

Check out the photo at the top of the article. Anyone care to venture as to his identity?

Lueders' article has several informative anecdotes (my emphasis):
Bukosky was charged with pointing a firearm at another person, a misdemeanor. His case is pending.

If Bukosky has a concealed carry license, which cannot be disclosed, being convicted of this crime will not result in revocation, unless a ban on firearm possession is imposed as a condition of bail or probation. Bukosky was released on a $750 signature bond with no such condition, court records show.


You can violate the terms of your permit, with no penalties.
DCB
Forum God/Goddess
 
Posts: 2648
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2008 5:08 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Headlines

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 3 guests

moviesmusiceats
Select a Movie
Select a Theater


commentsViewedForum
  ISTHMUS FLICKR

Promotions Contact us Privacy Policy Jobs Newsletters RSS
Collapse Photo Bar